Few random questions

[wingnutgabber]

I have a few random knife making questions to ask this community.
1. Can someone explain to me or show me a good instructional video on how to use a buffing wheel properly? I want to clean up my finished knives but I have had issues trying to buff metal. I am looking for instructions that you’d give a seven year old.

2. I treated myself to some Alabama Damascus and two of the blades got warps in them after quench and placing in cold vise to straighten. Any suggestions to fix warp before temper cycle?

3. First time etching Damascus, I have two bottles ferric cloride. What’s best dilution method for a good etch?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

1) Buffing can be dangerous if done wrong ... it can still be dangerous done right. Use the Custon Search Engine in the stickys to search " How to Use a Buffing Wheel" and "Buffing Wheel Safety" to read the dozens of post threads on it.

2) DO NOT try to straighten before temper. Straighten after two temper cycles and then straighten at temper temperature (probably 400-425°F for Alabama damascus). If necessary, re-heat the blade to the temper point as many times as needed to work out the warp. Again, search "straightening warped blades".

3) Dilute bottle strength FC 1 part stock solution to 3 parts water. If your local water is heavily mineralized, use bottled water.

 

[Taz]

If it's a small warp, after your 2 tempering cycles, a carbide hammer can also be used to straighten the blades out. You will have to grind dimples out, so that is something to consider!

 

[wingnutgabber]

1) Buffing can be dangerous if done wrong ... it can still be dangerous done right. Use the Custon Search Engine in the stickys to search " How to Use a Buffing Wheel" and "Buffing Wheel Safety" to read the dozens of post threads on it.

2) DO NOT try to straighten before temper. Straighten after two temper cycles and then straighten at temper temperature (probably 400-425°F for Alabama damascus). If necessary, re-heat the blade to the temper point as many times as needed to work out the warp. Again, search "straightening warped blades".

3) Dilute bottle strength FC 1 part stock solution to 3 parts water. If your local water is heavily mineralized, use bottled water.

1. I’ve browsed blade forums a bit and didn’t get the answers I was looking for. Blade forum keeps crashing and reloading for me so I don’t browse much these days. Just trying to post these questions crashed and reloaded three times before I could post.

2. Do you recommend hitting with a hammer to try and straighten or use the vise system or some other tools? I tempered at 390ish. Will that affect it?

3. Do you still get a good etch with that much dilution? Supplier I purchased from had much stronger solution recipe. What does different dilution rates do for Damascus etching?

 

[Taz]

Buffers can fling items very quickly, which is especially dangerous with knives! If a corner/edge gets caught by the wheel, it will rip it out of your hands and fling it.

You don't just "hit it with a hammer" to straighten. The carbide straightening hammers have carbide (usually a ball bearing) inset in the face of the hammer. You tap on the inside of the curve and the carbide helps peen and stretch the material, straightening it. It doesn't take much force (I let the 8oz ball peen hammer pretty much bounce with little power put into it). Hammering on the high side of the bend will break the blade. Hitting too hard will break the blade.

Most use a 1:3-1:5 dilution ferric to water. The slower etch is better and will provide more topographical contrast between the steels. If it's too strong, the 15N20/nickel in the damascus steels will etch quicker and not stay bright. If your supplier is not a knifemaking supplier, they won't know what you want to achieve. Ferric Chloride is often used to etch circuit boards, so they may use it full strength for other purposes.

You can google "buffer safety" , "carbide straightening hammer" and "ferric chloride acid etching damascus" if BFC is crashing on you.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Added - I see Taz posted most of the same info while I was typing


The crashing isn't a problem with Bladeforums. It is a problem with whatever device you are trying to view it on. If your computer won't load it for some reason, try YouTube or internet searches.

The information is there is a search. I reviewed your past postings on steel choice and HT issues. Not trying to be snarky, but if you want to improve a problem you don't understand, you have to be willing to listen to te advice offered and do the work.

Carbide hammers are special straightening hammers with a small carbide ball imbedded in the end of a ball peen hammer.

FC dilutions are normally 1:3 to 5:3 and sometimes as weak as 1:15. Too concentrated can cause a bad etch.

Buffers are very dangerous use wrong. It isn't a "I'll figure thjis out mu=yself" tool. Search online for the many videos and warnings on them.

 

[daily_grind]

This is on my buffer:

I like the buffer, but I have really started to like hand sanding. I like the satiny finish.
There's a video by Nick Wheeler that people repost here every once in a while that is worth looking at:

 

[wingnutgabber]

Buffers can fling items very quickly, which is especially dangerous with knives! If a corner/edge gets caught by the wheel, it will rip it out of your hands and fling it.

You don't just "hit it with a hammer" to straighten. The carbide straightening hammers have carbide (usually a ball bearing) inset in the face of the hammer. You tap on the inside of the curve and the carbide helps peen and stretch the material, straightening it. It doesn't take much force (I let the 8oz ball peen hammer pretty much bounce with little power put into it). Hammering on the high side of the bend will break the blade. Hitting too hard will break the blade.

Most use a 1:3-1:5 dilution ferric to water. The slower etch is better and will provide more topographical contrast between the steels. If it's too strong, the 15N20/nickel in the damascus steels will etch quicker and not stay bright. If your supplier is not a knifemaking supplier, they won't know what you want to achieve. Ferric Chloride is often used to etch circuit boards, so they may use it full strength for other purposes.

You can google "buffer safety" , "carbide straightening hammer" and "ferric chloride acid etching damascus" if BFC is crashing on you.

Thank you for the

Buffers can fling items very quickly, which is especially dangerous with knives! If a corner/edge gets caught by the wheel, it will rip it out of your hands and fling it.

You don't just "hit it with a hammer" to straighten. The carbide straightening hammers have carbide (usually a ball bearing) inset in the face of the hammer. You tap on the inside of the curve and the carbide helps peen and stretch the material, straightening it. It doesn't take much force (I let the 8oz ball peen hammer pretty much bounce with little power put into it). Hammering on the high side of the bend will break the blade. Hitting too hard will break the blade.

Most use a 1:3-1:5 dilution ferric to water. The slower etch is better and will provide more topographical contrast between the steels. If it's too strong, the 15N20/nickel in the damascus steels will etch quicker and not stay bright. If your supplier is not a knifemaking supplier, they won't know what you want to achieve. Ferric Chloride is often used to etch circuit boards, so they may use it full strength for other purposes.

You can google "buffer safety" , "carbide straightening hammer" and "ferric chloride acid etching damascus" if BFC is crashing on you.

Thank you for clarifying several things up for me. I had talked with some blade makers I had met and they use buffing wheels to polish. I thought it was a norm since i see so many high polished blades. I will definitely not use the buffer for polishing blades.

I will lookup a straightening hammer. I had looked up some videos on youtube for straightening bends. I got several different answers, including one saying to do something your saying not to do. When i get to many varying answers to a question i have, i go ask people. How long should I let the tempered blade bake at 400 before i start straightening? I have a heat treat kiln so i can set pretty accurate temp and times.

I have looked up varying etching dilution ratios so i was looking for clarification. None of the etching information that i got was as detailed as you on etching. Thank you. I will definitely go with the low dilution rate. I ordered this damascus from knife kit website. They have a base dilution explanation that makes it very strong.

 

[wingnutgabber]

Added - I see Taz posted most of the same info while I was typing


The crashing isn't a problem with Bladeforums. It is a problem with whatever device you are trying to view it on. If your computer won't load it for some reason, try YouTube or internet searches.

The information is there is a search. I reviewed your past postings on steel choice and HT issues. Not trying to be snarky, but if you want to improve a problem you don't understand, you have to be willing to listen to te advice offered and do the work.

Carbide hammers are special straightening hammers with a small carbide ball imbedded in the end of a ball peen hammer.

FC dilutions are normally 1:3 to 5:3 and sometimes as weak as 1:15. Too concentrated can cause a bad etch.

Buffers are very dangerous use wrong. It isn't a "I'll figure thjis out mu=yself" tool. Search online for the many videos and warnings on them.

I wasnt blaming blade forums. I only have limited resources to access the internet currently, which is an old smart phone. I know its the issue.

I do allot of online searches to try and answer my questions. When i get to many varying answers or ones i dont quite understand, I post questions here. Thanks to the advice of the people that this group has provided to my questions, I have been able to solve allot of my issues like metal types and heat treating issues. I even ordered some folding knife kits to help learn how to make folders.

I did not know that the buffer was a difficult tool to learn. I looked up some videos on how to use with not much of information coming up. I never considered looking up buffer safety. What information i found on buffers said they were easy and straightforward to use.

 

[wingnutgabber]

This is on my buffer:

I like the buffer, but I have really started to like hand sanding. I like the satiny finish.
There's a video by Nick Wheeler that people repost here every once in a while that is worth looking at:

Thank you. I thought buffing blades was acommon thing. Had a few blade makers tell me its how they do it so i figured it was common with as many polished blades there are. I never thought about looking up buffer safety. I only looked for how to use buffer.

 

[A.McPherson]

Buffers aren't hard to use.
They are just dangerous.

Kinda like a table saw, but without a giant spinning blade to keep you from getting complacent.

The problem with them is that they can, and will grab whatever you are buffing and throw it right back at you before you even know it's happened.

A jeweler buddy of mine has a "buffing box". It's a lighted, steel box with a plexiglass window and hand holes to reach inside. I can't tell you how many times I've been buffing on something, then suddenly seeing in ricochet around the enclosure.

 

[LCoop]

I get it, I really do. I do A LOT of buffing. I do it right beside my chainsaw, table saw etc. All tools can and will kill you if you don't operate them safely. Just saying all tools can kill or maim you. User beware. For me a buffer is an essential part of my knife shop that I depend on and use daily.I believe a buffer is just as safe as a table saw, band saw, riding mower etc. Use and respect.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Coop has the truth -- once you know how to use a buffer it is not that much more dangerous than using knife shop power tools.

The big difference is in the learning stages. A grinder might take some serious skin off your fingers or ruin a blade in the learning stages. A buffer can severely cut or stab you. It happens in 1/30 of a second on a slower buffer, and 1/60th of a second on a fast one. Your eyes can't see that fast, and your reaction time is 10 to 20 times slower. It will be over before you actually know it happened.

I used multiple buffers pretty much every day for 50 years. from 1/4HP 6" to 2HP 12"units. I still respect them and stop and think before I put anything to the wheel. Even then, it rips a few things from my fingers at least weekly.

I almost never buff a blade to a mirror finish. I just don't care for that look, or its longevity. Personally, I also think it greatly affects the edge temper.
I use a buffer on every knife to buff the wire off the edge after sharpening on the grinder. This is the most dangerous time because the edge is now insanely sharp. You absolutely need a firm grip and to pre-think where the tip and edge are pointing. If either grabs, a ruined wheel is least upsetting thing that can happen.

 

[wingnutgabber]

1) Buffing can be dangerous if done wrong ... it can still be dangerous done right. Use the Custon Search Engine in the stickys to search " How to Use a Buffing Wheel" and "Buffing Wheel Safety" to read the dozens of post threads on it.

2) DO NOT try to straighten before temper. Straighten after two temper cycles and then straighten at temper temperature (probably 400-425°F for Alabama damascus). If necessary, re-heat the blade to the temper point as many times as needed to work out the warp. Again, search "straightening warped blades".

3) Dilute bottle strength FC 1 part stock solution to 3 parts water. If your local water is heavily mineralized, use bottled water.

Finally the straightening hammer I order from a maker came in. I can now proceed. You say to heat the metal to temper temperature, how long of a soak do you recommend for 5/32”? I tried looking up temp soak time, but every method I come upon has people hammering the blade cold.

Also you had mentioned a 1:15 dilution for etching the Damascus, what advice do you have on soaking time? I’ve watched so many videos and have gotten so many different answers. Not many have even mentioned a dilution like that.

 

[Taz]

Carbide hammer straightening is done cold, but after the steel is tempered fully. 2 hours, around 400 degrees each cycle is usually the recommendation for Alabama Damascus steel.

Try a 1:4 ratio acid to water and see how it does. Remember to always add acid and not the other way around! The more dilute/weaker the acid is, the slower the etching will be. Too strong of an acid mixture, it will not show as much contrast and can make the steel looks splotchy or galvanized from being too aggressive. The acid will etch the carbon steel before the higher nickel content steel, which will give the color and texture contrast. Soak in acid for a bit, remove, clean up the surface with super fine sandpaper (1500 or higher usually) to clean the nickel and remove some of the oxides and repeat until you get the contrast you want.

You want a fairly high grit finish (hand rubbed finish at over 1000 grit typically) before etching and make sure you degrease the blade fully before acid etching, too.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yes, as Taz said, the carbide hammer id done on the cold blade after tempering.

Straightening by bending is done at temper temperature. At the end of the time for the second temper, straighten before cooling. If it needs more, reheat in the temper oven for 15 minutes and straighten some more. You can do this as many re-heats as needed.

 

[Taz]

With the carbide hammer, one thing I found helpful is to peen in "bands". Find the bottom of the bend and peen up and down the blade there in the band/stripe around 1/2" wide and check. If more is needed, move over an inch or so and do another "band" of peening and re check. I tried peening a wider area and it was much slower than using the "band" method.


I've found that it's not a continuous curve and that the ends of the curve are fairly straight, so once you get the middle bend out, it's mostly straightened out! I had some 18" long blades that had a bow up to 3/16" deep over their length (24" including the handle). When I peened all over the blade, it took a long time. By using the band method, I found it much quicker to straighten out with a lot less peening!

 

[weo]

Hi W wingnutgabber , whereabouts in Oregon? If close to SE Portland, we could probably help you with the straightening.

Also you had mentioned a 1:15 dilution for etching the Damascus, what advice do you have on soaking time?

1:15 is a very weak solution, and I think Stacy mentioned it only because there are some folks who go that weak. I can't remember exactly what my solution is because I've added to it numerous times over the years (both water and acid) but I'd guess it's somewhere close to 1:3-1:5.
How long will depend on the concentration (higher acid = shorter time) and the temperature of the solution/room. In the summer I usually start with one 5-10 minute etch, and then adjust from there. In the winter when the shop is colder, the time can be as high as 45-60 minute etch cycles. I prefer to do multiple (4-5) etching cycles to get the topography I want.

 

[wingnutgabber]

Carbide hammer straightening is done cold, but after the steel is tempered fully. 2 hours, around 400 degrees each cycle is usually the recommendation for Alabama Damascus steel.

Try a 1:4 ratio acid to water and see how it does. Remember to always add acid and not the other way around! The more dilute/weaker the acid is, the slower the etching will be. Too strong of an acid mixture, it will not show as much contrast and can make the steel looks splotchy or galvanized from being too aggressive. The acid will etch the carbon steel before the higher nickel content steel, which will give the color and texture contrast. Soak in acid for a bit, remove, clean up the surface with super fine sandpaper (1500 or higher usually) to clean the nickel and remove some of the oxides and repeat until you get the contrast you want.

You want a fairly high grit finish (hand rubbed finish at over 1000 grit typically) before etching and make sure you degrease the blade fully before acid etching, too.

Thank you very much. That is way better detailed information than what’s available on the internet.

 

[wingnutgabber]

Yes, as Taz said, the carbide hammer id done on the cold blade after tempering.

Straightening by bending is done at temper temperature. At the end of the time for the second temper, straighten before cooling. If it needs more, reheat in the temper oven for 15 minutes and straighten some more. You can do this as many re-heats as needed.

Thank you for clarifying.