Fiber Spacers

Jack142

Jack142

Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
433
Hi Gang,
On the third knife that I made something strange is happening. AND I am wondering if anything like this might have happened to any of you.

I put 3 spacers between the steel and the micarta handle. I am positive that the fiber spacers and the handle were perfectly smooth with the handle.
The knife looks kinda cool with 3 spacers, but that is a lot of plastic or what ever it is to put there.
I bought the spacers from Jantz.

Also, I will say that I did peen this handle pretty good and tight. I was so proud because it was the best peening job I have done so far
I wonder if I am sqeezing the fiber out ?

Now, about 25 days later the fiber spacers are slightly "squeeze" out beween the handle and the steel. Not by alot, but enough to feel when you hold the knife.
It is out far enough to catch your thumb nail.
I didnt think that these spacers were capable of moving.

Maybe because I used 3 spacers that this happend.

What do you guys think ?

I did glue the spacers to themselves before I glued them and the handle up. I also used slow curing appoxy takes about 30 min to set and I let the knife dry for a couple of days.

Has anything like this ever happend to any of you ?

Anyway I guess this as everything else is a learning curve for me.
Adios
jack
 
Jack, can you post a picture of the knife for us to look at so we can see what pattern the handle is? This might help us figure out the problem. Also, how many pins did you use on the handle? Is the knife a full tang with the spacers covering the tang or a stick tang with the spacers on the end of the handle? If it's a stick tang with the spacers at the end, you might not have gotten enough epoxy in the handle to fill the hole you made in the spacers. it's best to glue and pin the spacers to the end of the handle before attaching the handle to the blade when building a stick tang knife with spacers. This makes it virtually impossible for the spacers to move any. Also, I fill the cavity in the handle with enough epoxy that I get some squeeze out when I put the knife together. It's messy but that way I know the entire cavity and hole in the spacer is full of epoxy.
I sure would like to see a picture of your knife. If you can't post it, email it to me and I'll post it for you.
 
Mike,
Thanks for the reply. I will try to take some pics this weekend. It is a full tang knife. The handle is not very long. I used 2 pins. I used a lot of epoxy when I glued the spacers together. But I didn use a lot of glue when I put the handle, spacers onto the steel handle. I tried less glue this time because the other 2 knives that I made were such a big mess with glue all over the place. I figured that the excess glue was just squeezing out anyway ... so why put too much on in the first place.

I just dont understand why the spaces expanded ? AS, I said before they didnt move a lot. just a thumnail above the back of the handle. And I know for a fact that they were smooth when I finished the knife a few weeks ago. I wet sanded with 600 and 1500 grit. Got that micarta real smooth.

Anyway, I was just wondering if anything like this has happend to anyone else ?
Thanks guys,
Jack
 
Jack,

If you are taking about vulcanized spacing paper? A custom knife maker I know and who helps me with making some of my hobbist project knives, we have all but given up on this material. Sanded smooth but in time, it seems to expand or contract. But enough movement to make it a nuisance. It's been epoxied and is dry. What's the cause? My only reason, could be the temperature. Causing different materials to expand and/or contract. I now use a different material, for hidden or full tang knives.

Jeff
 
Some types of fiber spacer material can swell with humidity. Its like a sponge. It can swell, or shrink, depending on the weather. :eek:
 
Yes, I am talking about vulcanized fiber spacers. I bought them from Jantz supply. I didnt know that they would shrink or expand.

So what does a knifemaker do ?

Jack
 
Doesn't anyone else use Dap's Weldwood contact cement on full tang blades and handles? I quit using epoxy when I had one break free while I was stamping my mark in a blade. The tang and handle even had holes drilled all over the place for epoxy rivets and 60 grit scratches in them but the vibration still made it break loose. Since then I've been using the Dap's. You can't knock a handle off when it's glued on with contact cement. Only way I've been able to remove em when I've needed to was to hammer a thin bladed knife between the tang and handle. It's easy to clean up the excess too, just put some WD40 on a cloth and wipe away.
 
Michael,
Fill me in on this contact cement you are using ?
Does is fill gaps ?
How long does it take to cure, is there any time to make adjustments in the handle before its sets hard ?
Or once you set the handle on its done ?
How does it handle heat or cold ?
What about water ? I wash hunters a lot ?
Anything else you can think of ?
I am always willing to try something new
Thanks
Jack
 
Does is fill gaps ?
It will but you shouldn't depend on you glues to fill gaps, you should work the materials down till there are virtually no gaps to fill. Don't mean to be a smart a**, just my opinion.
How long does it take to cure, is there any time to make adjustments in the handle before its sets hard ?
It depends on the temperature. if it's cold it takes a little longer for it to dry. The way contact cement works is, you apply a thin coat to both surfaces and let it dry till it's tacky. Then you carefully put the two parts together. Once they're together, you can wiggle/slide them some before you apply pressure. I put the pins in one side before applying the glue and have them sticking about 1/4" thru the tang side of the scale so it's easy to get them in the holes, that way I don't have a problem lining them up when assembling. Once the pins are started I slide the scale onto the tang and tap the pins thru the holes and then slide the other scale onto the pins. You usually have to tap the scale to get it all the way on or you can use some clamps. Once I have the scales all the way on I cut the pins to the length I want them and clamp the handle in my vice with pieces of leather taped to the jaws to keep from marring the scales. I apply enough pressure to make sure the scales are seated well and there are no gaps all around. Then just take the knife out of the vice and carefully pien the pins and finish the handle.
Or once you set the handle on its done ?
How does it handle heat or cold ?
Temperature changes have never affected the contact cement that I've noticed.
What about water ? I wash hunters a lot ?
Water won't affect it either, the stuff is super tough. It's the same glue they use to stick laminate to counter tops.
Anything else you can think of ?
It's readily available at any hardware store or building materials store and it comes in a paint style can and can be applied with small acid brush. I put some in a large mouth jar, like a small pickle jar and just leave the brush in the jar for reuse. it's a little messy when you start but I don't see the point in throwing out a brush after one use. Just have to scrape the glue off the brush shaft on the rim of the jar.
Get a pint and give it a try.
 
I had my first knife scale come off the other day after being glued on during the shaping and heavy sanding phase. I had used 2 ton epoxie and was rather surprised at this. I will get some Dap's Weldwood contact cement and try it on my next knife handle job. I was really upset about this one falling off because it was a small knife and cleaning up the scales and blade and fitting them exactly back on was tough. I did get them back on and finished the handles last night. I'm just learning and these kinds of set backs are major surprises. I'm glad to be up here and able to learn new approches to solving them.

Art
 
Originally posted by fyimo
I had my first knife scale come off the other day after being glued on during the shaping and heavy sanding phase. I had used 2 ton epoxie and was rather surprised at this. I will get some Dap's Weldwood contact cement and try it on my next knife handle job. I was really upset about this one falling off because it was a small knife and cleaning up the scales and blade and fitting them exactly back on was tough. I did get them back on and finished the handles last night. I'm just learning and these kinds of set backs are major surprises. I'm glad to be up here and able to learn new approches to solving them.

Art
Click to expand...

I have been using Devcon 2 ton epoxy for many years without a failure, as long as I did my part and the epoxy was good. It can go bad if stored in your shop, with extremes of temperature. But even when bad, where it stayed rubbery, I still had to chisel off the scales.
What exactly are you doing with your handles? Are they pinned, or bolted when you were grinding the scales?
There are many variables, please fill us in a little more. :confused:
 
I have not been able to get any epoxy I have tried to bond to fiber spacers. I skeleton my spacers so the bonding agent flows through the tang and onto the opposite scale, securely sandwiching the spacer material between. I have noticed some small swelling with time.

P.S., I have not been able to get epoxy to bond to nickel silver either. Acetone wash before hand, whatever; doesn't help for me. For N/S bolsters I cut a dove tail into the side of the bolster that fits against the tang. That dove tail is filled with epoxy and flows through the tang and into the opposite bolster dovetail. It is locked upon curing and for this I have used JB Weld.

Roger
 
Acetone itself is often not enough. Use a fine scotchbrite pad first, to knock the oxidation off them, then use acetone. I have never had a problem with this at all.
The biggest thing is, use it in the right temperature. It must be high enough for the curing process. Best thing at this time of year, do this sort of thing in the house. A heated house. Also don't store epoxy in the shop. Store it in a stable area, like a cupboard, or closet, in the house, year round. Your epoxy will last longer, and give better results.
I won't use fiber spacers at all. I used them 20+ years ago, and did not like the fact that you could knock the scales off very easy. They failed at the fiber spacer. No more of that. :eek:
 
Ok Guys,
Now I am wondering if I will ever use fiber spacers again ?
The stuff I bought was from Jantz, they are called " Vulcanized fiber material "

My "kitchen" knife that I made has 1 single white spacer, under a micarta handle. A small piece of it has "vanished"
Now to be honest, my wife uses this knife, and it sits a lot in soapy water. I got her convinced not to put it in the dishwasher.
So, maybe, another knife or fork, gouged the fiber spacer out, between the tang and the micarta ?
I KNOW BIGGGG stretch !!

Now, I guess my next question is what kind of spacers do you guys use?

Or do you not use spacers at all ?

I thought, spacers are a easy neat way for a " small timer" like me to add a little bit of " customization" to a knife.

Maybe I ought to redefine my thinking ?

You guys got more experience then me at this

Thanks again
Jack
 
the stuff is junk.............one of the BIGGEST problems with it is not mentioned above, it absorbs water, and can be instrumental in delaminations of the handle from the blade.......lots of guys still use it, I will not.
 
I think I'm gonna be sick...

I just made a pair of kitchen knives and put in spacers (like a true fool). There were "supposed" to be able to be used in the dishwasher. Oops.
 
R.W.Loveless has been using red spacers for years, how have they held up--anyone have one?
 
Comments/question on this issue. It seems that the concensus is that spacers suck. However, for example, I never hear anyone complaining that Blackwood's knives are falling apart. He uses spacers on lots of knives. Any thoughts?

Dan
 
I don't/won't use them, as noted above, but that is only my opinion. I also dislike white line spacers on rifle stocks too. I am a minimalist I guess.
 
Let's all make up a bunch of maple spacers and dye them what ever color we want. Due to such thinness we should be able to stabilize them well enough without pulling vacuums and the such. Dye before stabilizing. Problem solved?????

Roger
 
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