Field report - 25" Sirupati and 16.5" Chiruwa WWII

Anton Irmen

BOUNCED EMAIL: I need to update my email address in my profile!
Joined
Jan 15, 2001
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68
Finally, it's Friday – so I found the time to write down some field experiences with a 25” Sirupati and a 16.5” chiruwa style WWII. Because I have included quite a few pictures, I placed the report on my own website, so if you are interested, please use this link

Any comments, suggestions etc., are really appreciated


--[----- anton

edited for UBB - I'll never get it right the first time
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[This message has been edited by Anton Irmen (edited 04-01-2001).]
 
Anton,
You're webpage is amazing! I particularly like the bryce stuff. Who made the 2 hander with the blackened hilt???

Great review of the khukuris. That's more thorough that a lot of magazine reviews, and among the best, and most detailed unaffiliated reviews I've seen.

Bob
 
Thanks Onkel Bill and bobwill for your kind remarks.
bobwill, the sword is from a Czech company named Lutel. It is their model no. 15018, slightly customized. The swords are not too expensive – the one I’ve pictured here cost me around 200 US$ (this is the price you'll have to pay when you’re ordering from Europe – I’ve heard that they are charging some awfully high shipment costs when they have to ship stuff to the US) If you have more questions , please drop me an e-mail, I'll try to answer them.

--[------ anton


ok, some day I'll learn it....



[This message has been edited by Anton Irmen (edited 03-31-2001).]
 
Ahhh, Lutel. I'm familiar with their stuff. Yeah, great prices, Del Tin quality, only no US distributors.
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So, international shipping and customs ends up costing close to $100 USD.
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Some US Del Tin distributors are taking limited Lutel orders now, so they might become a good substitute.

Beautiful sword.

[This message has been edited by bobwill (edited 03-31-2001).]
 
Great review, Anton. Thanks.

You mentioned the slipperiness of the horn handle of the WWII gave you trouble. You can roughen that up with fine abrasive (Yvsa's used Scotch-Brite, I've used very fine sandpaper and light pressure). It gives the handle a matte look and grip is vastly improved. Big Bob started a thread on this that's still active:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum65/HTML/000560.html

Hope it helps.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I have added the pictures of the sword just because someone might find them interesting, I had it with me that day anyway, and because the Kamis seem to insist on the "thin blades will break" idea
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I realize you were kinda kidding when you wrote this, but I will proceed anyway, besides, people who know even less than I do(God, I hope I'm not the dumbest person here) might find this helpful.
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The Lutel is thoroughly hardened to 50 HRC, give or take a Rockwell or two. Whereas the khukuris are only about 30 HRC at the spine. This gives the Lutel the advantage that the whole width of the blade is more resistant to taking a set. Keep in mind, they don't want them to break, or bend. And differentially hardened blades are usually more likely to take a set when bent out of line than spring tempered Euro stuff. So, they thicken up the spine in order to make up for fact.

I wonder what a khukuri that is hardened to a uniform 50 - 52 HRC would do. I guess a Del Tin Falcata would be fairly comparable to what that would be like. Are the Cold Steel khurkuris differentially hardened, or are they uniformally hardened?

Don't ask me where this came from, I think laminate construction that you were talking about at the Eggen at the bottom of your page. I just happened to think, I wonder what the kamis would do if someone were to say, buy a damascus billet and pay to ship it over to them for a custom khukuri. I'm sure they could come up with something truly beautiful. Although it might take a try or two for them to get used to the new steel in heat treat, might want to start out with something small, like the Kagas Katne. Not a comment on the kamis' skill, just the fact that new steel, new heat cycling properties, different reactions. I mean, I've heard from friends, even the most skilled heat treaters are usually hesitant to reharden and temper the new Paul Chen pattern welded stuff, if it has a bad temper, simply because they don't know the properties of the steel. Regardless, it's not something that I could afford any time soon,
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someone else might.
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The billet alone would probably cost more than a regular khukuri! Could make a great kothimoda though.

Bob


[This message has been edited by bobwill (edited 03-31-2001).]
 
Bobwill, I never should have put the pictures of the sword on my page
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I really was only kidding with the remark on the kamis ideas, and I did not want to imply that I was thinking their approach was in any way “mediocre”. Quite the opposite is true; I think that the differential hardening technique is the best for a single-edged tool/weapon like a khukuri, because it combines a hard edge with a less “brittle” spine. I also don’t mind the thick spine, because it adds to the khukuri’s functionality, by giving it the cross-sectional geometry that makes a good chopper (e.g. compare them to some CS khukuris, btw, I am pretty sure those are uniformly hardened). I am not really sure if the use of “damascus” steel would improve the performance of the khukuris considerably (although I am absolutely sure the resulting products would be beautiful) A khukuri that is uniformly hardened to 50 HRC might just work fine, and assuming it would have the same spine thickness than the current models have, it would be very tough and maybe even less prone to take a permanent bend. But is “less prone” actually an issue? I am still trying to come up with any idea how to permanently bend, for example, the blade of a WWII only using my strength or body weight alone. On the other hand, an edge hardened to 50 HRC might just be too soft for some purposes. So, basically, I think things are pretty good the way they are
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Double-edged European swords were designed for a different purpose than those a Khukuri was made for, and edge-holding ability (or a really shaving sharp edge) was not the most important goal a smith had to achieve. Those swords came into contact with quite some “hard” stuff, which would have ruined a delicate edge pretty soon, anyway. So I guess the smiths thought that a medium hard, convex edge would do. But those swords had to take quite an amount of lateral stress, either by blade to blade (flat to flat, or less desirable, edge to edge) contact, or blade / armour/shield contact. So, possible breakage of the blade was certainly something the smiths were concerned about. And a uniformly hardened “spring tempered” steel is an easy and efficient way to get a tough blade that will stay within certain weight limits.


--[------ anton
 
Oh don't worry, I understood you were joking. I just tend to run off at the mouth or keyboard as the case may be some times. I don't think that anyone thought that you thought that the kamis were doing a "mediocre job." (Hmmm, I'm not creative enough to slip the word thought in any more times.)
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I don't think the patternwelded blade would be any tougher, or better than 5160 myself, but it would be beautiful.

Bob
 
Thanks, DocPat2511, and all of you who posted on the related thread started by Tom Holt. Quite a few valuable suggestions. I have already wrapped the buffalo-horn handle of the WWII with paracord, and it seems to work fine for me. I just recently purchased some nice deer hide, I just can’t wait to see if this would make a nice, “old-fashioned” grip cover...


--[------ anton
 
:
Anton you talk about covering a khukuri grip with deer skin?

If I were doing it I would put the flesh side out and sew it with what we call a `baseball' stitch. The baseball stich leaves a very smooth seam while drawing the leather tightly together.
Wet the skin before you sew it on and it will fit the handle like or better than it fit the deer that wore it.
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Oh!! And it has to be cut very accurately as well to fit the handle so there won't be any puckers in it.

Us ndns use deer or other soft skin to cover articles we're gonna do bead work on as the soft leather absorbs the shock that could break the beads otherwise.
I have a Cold Steel Hudson Bay `Scalper' with a beautiful blue beaded handle trimmed with 3-4 rows
of white beads on each end.
It was easy to put the skin on because it's the same size and shape all the way.
Hope this helps.
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Dayumed keyboard is missing letters again, time for new batteries?
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------------------
>>>>---Yvsa-G@WebTV.net---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.

[This message has been edited by Yvsa (edited 04-01-2001).]
 
Great review.

Have you experienced blade chipping cutting through lamb ribs with other knives? Did you find the WWII to be harder or softer than the Sirupati.

Curious how you were able to maintain the convex geometry with a ceramic file.

Some of the rings on the handles bother my hand too and yet some of them do not. The ones that do not are a welcome addition to improving grip security. The ones that do take a bit of getting use to.

My 18" Ang Khola handle slides about in my hands during chopping causing blisters. To overcome this I have covered and shaped the handle with hockey tape. It has made it very secure but slightly abrasive.

What are the laws concerning the large knives in Germany. What people wear in Germany (no offence intended)?

Will

 
Yvsa: Thanks for the tips, I was just thinking about using leather to cover the handle because the wooden handles of medieval European sword were often covered this way. I have done it two times for one of my swords, and the result was quite comfortable (although, a more skilled person would have certainly achieved a more esthetically pleasing result..
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I used hot, molten beeswax to impregnate the leather after it has been sewn in place, which makes the leather a little harder, shrinks it a bit more and gives it a little more “grip”. (the wax of "modern", stearine/paraffine candles will not work). I am however not sure, if this will work with deerskin, too. I maybe will use the leather as a “cover” for the now cord-wrapped handle – the cord-wrap might have the advantage of making the shape of the grip a little less weird in terms of cutting the leather to the right shape, and adding some cushioning.


Will Kwan: The files I used were actually two ceramic sticks of my Spyderco Sharpmaker (since I had no other means of sharpening available at that moment). I used the to “burnish” and “hone” the nicks away, changing the angle I was holding the “file” from time to time a little bit. So basically, I was producing a “multi-bevelled” edge that was (hopefully) close to the original convex grind. I noticed that I am not too good in explaining this procedure, but maybe you got the idea. To get is as convex as possible after this initial sharpening, I used fine-grit (600 or 800) sandpaper that is placed on a small strip of foam from a good-quality camping mat which in turn is glued to a wooden base to “strop” the blade. This foam is hard enough to provide the needed resistance, but is soft enough to indent a little under the knife’s weight.

I have not “abused” other knifes before when chopping bones, since I normally use a small hatched, a saw or the spine of my hunting knife (which has a kind of an axe-grind) for this task. The WWII had a far more delicate grind than the hatchet, so maybe I should have expected a few nicks.

Laws regarding knifes in Germany are not as bad as they are for example in the UK. (Gun-laws are pretty rigorous, though) The only restrictions currently in place apply to automatic knifes, which are only allowed if their blade length is below 8cm (this might get changed in the near future to 6.5cm) and to sword-canes and similar stuff, which are illegal because it is not obvious that they are weapons. Carrying large knifes in public is legal as long as it does not take place during some kind of “public event” (or “public function” – I am not sure about the correct English term) like concerts, fairs, festivals, etc. This means, if I want to take a sword with me when going to a renaissance fair, I need to get a permit first (this permit is only valid for the specified event), which is not too difficult. (ok, sometimes the guys at the county house don’t react too enthusiastic to the fact that sometimes, those swords are sharp – but “hey, I need them for cutting demonstrations” was normally enough to convince them).
However, knifes are not generally a part of the accepted dressing code here (the only knife I am currently carrying with me is a Spyderco folder), and I am not sure what would happen if I were carrying something like a 25” Sirupati with me in urbanized areas. Lots of questions, maybe from the police, too, would be the least that would happen, I guess. And I certainly would have problems to explain why I actually need this knife during shopping, or when going to my office. Folders are still pretty much accepted (especially if they look "traditional" - wooden or stag scales and such..), but the public’s (read: city folks) attitude towards knifes, especially if they are looking “intimidating” is beginning to change – knifes are seen more and more as something “dangerous” that is associated with criminals. I can’t say that I either understand or like this trend.

--[------ anton


[This message has been edited by Anton Irmen (edited 04-02-2001).]
 
Thanks for the update Anton.

I used the Spyderco ceramic sticks to sharpen my khukuri too, except I keep a constant angle.

Actually the knife laws seem better than Canada. We don't get any kind of automatic knife.

Is your hunting knife the Puma White Hunter with the ax grind on the spine?

Will

[This message has been edited by Will Kwan (edited 04-02-2001).]
 
Will, yes, the knife is a Puma White Hunter with wood scales. For some silly reasons, Puma likes to call this model "Auto-Messer" (car-knife), but blade and grip shape are absolutely identical with the White Hunter (not that that is a very smart name, either). Neat "little" (amazing, how your perspective changes with time) knife - actually, now after thinking about it, it's somewhat Khukuri-like: (very slightly) recurved blade, and a grip that is just a tad too short
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--[------ anton
 
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