Field Surgical Kit

Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Messages
1,499
Please forgive me if this has been brought up in the past. Does anyone include one of those field surgical kits, like the military surplus ones, in their first aid/survival packs. I was thinking of perhaps getting one as a supplement to a small first aid kit. Worth it? Not worth it? All input is appreciated. Thanks. -Matt-
 
Please forgive me if this has been brought up in the past. Does anyone include one of those field surgical kits, like the military surplus ones, in their first aid/survival packs. I was thinking of perhaps getting one as a supplement to a small first aid kit. Worth it? Not worth it? All input is appreciated. Thanks. -Matt-

Personally I would not even want one near me. I am an EMT and a Wilderness EMT. I could carry one but then I might want to use one. The part that would be missing is the knowledge of a doctor/surgeon. What would I use it for? The only thing I can think of is to hurt, maim or cripple someone and then enjoy the years in court, both civil and criminal that I would be able to pay for and lose. Seriously, what would you actually be able to do with it?

In short without the training I would not waste the money. Do yourself a favor and forget you even heard of it. Take a wilderness first aid class. The knowledge you gain from that should help you handle most first aid problems.

Just my $.02
KR
 
The wife included one in our main home/BOB Medkit. She also added additional shears, several types of tweezers, sutures and several sizes of irrigation syringes.
 
I have on that I got through nitro-pack.com I like mine but as already said, you need to know how to use it too. Some places that sell the military version also sell a feild manual for surgical procedures, I dont have the book so I cant comment on it.
 
When I was active in ARES in Santa Barbara I knew a few EMTs and they said the same thing as Kr1. Again, what are you going to use it for? I guess you could stitch up a wound, but you would probably be better off with something like butterfly closures.

I got to look at their kits and I don't remember any stuff for suturing wounds.
 
Yeah, the kit the wife picked up is minor surgery. No scalpels, or suture/butterfly closures.
 
As a former EMT, I'm inclined to agree with kr1, accept for a very rare situation, stitching a wound closed in the field is almost promising an infection. It's better to keep it covered and clean as possible, but leave the skin open to drain.

This article is really good, and if my aging memory serves me it was written by someone that post here also.

http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=285
 
i would have agreed with kr1 a year or so ago, as a paramedic/nurse (yes im a paramedic first not a nurse/paramedic) my thought would have been that of the last confederate in that you are looking at infection problems, however, a light weight kit like the pre-packaged "hook and silk" kits hospitals carry would not be a bad idea for rare occasions in which an open wound is expanding dangerously, inhibiting an important function (ie walking to your car to drive to a hospital), etc. but be prepared it is not easy at all to do to your self and you must practice proper sanitation techniques as well as have a basic knowledge of closing a wound surgically. a few months back a backpacker came in to a local trauma center that i was at and the doctor said the only reason he was still alive was self surgery. keep in mind it should only be done in extreme conditions and your most important move is letting someone know where you will be and always know what you are doing.
 
the need for this type of kit is extremely rare, the risks of the kit being used in an inapropriate fashion are very real and very dangerous, i would not council the nonmedical personel to carry one of these. the possiblity for a need is more rambo than real.

alex
 
and you must practice proper sanitation techniques

When a hospital that is supposedly a sterile environment still has a far number of infections post surgical, how is it going to be possible for an untrained person to create a sterile environment out in the field?

Considering that most suturing jobs are cosmetic, I am trying to understand what kind of wounds cannot be closed with just Tincture of Benzion and steri strips. If you suture closed a gaping wound in the field and you are very likely to close in an infection. If the infection cannot release itself to the outside (because of your excellent suturing job) it may very likely go inwards. It can easily become systemic and this is a recipe for a disaster. If that happens you better know what you are looking at and know what to do or you may likely have killed someone because they had a non-life threatening cut that you turned into death because of your illegal surgery. Try explaining this to his/her significant other, the police, the coroner, a jury etc. Imagine all the hearings you will be invited to. :D :eek: If instead you use steri strips and the wound becomes infected it will ooze like a wound should that isn't cleaned properly, and it is very unlikely that you will be able to irrigate a wound properly in the field so again it will get infected. I will relay what a doctor once told me. He told me back at the turn of the 19th century a doctor did what was later referred to by medical students as the dog shit experiments. They cut 20 dogs and took shit and spread it in all 20 wounds. 10 they sutured closed and the other 10 they left open. All 10 closed wounds became seriously infected and some of the dogs died. The 10 open wounds all healed without a major infection. I’ll say it once more. Most suture jobs that don’t involve tendon injury or something like that are superficial and probably not needed at all except for cosmetics. This is what the doctor in charge of the medical training program for the wilderness EMT course had to say on the subject. Not me.

I won't go into things like "standard of care” and “who was your medical control, etc when you started to act like a doctor. I will say that even if you are successful and don't make things worse you are very likely setting yourself up for a lawsuit and/or arrest. Most everyone in almost every state in the country (46 at last count if I remember correctly) is covered by the Good Samaritan laws of that state. They are almost universally the same in every state that has one. Basically, you are protected from a lawsuit if what you do, medically, to help someone, doesn't exceed your level of training even if that person dies, even if you made mistakes, provided what you did wrong didn’t rise to the level of wanton carelessness. I.e. if you are trained in first aid and you apply a Band-Aid to what a reasonable person would consider a minor wound after cleaning the wound on that person and then they later lost the arm do to infection you very likely would be protected from a viable lawsuit. You start doing CPR on a heart attack patient because that is what you were trained to do. But when he doesn’t revive you start whacking away at him with your Leatherman to do open heart surgery on him because you saw it on ER, because “what the hell, he was going to die anyway, what could it hurt?” you will find yourself in serious trouble. Anyone dispute this? I know this is on the extreme end of the spectrum but that is how it will be looked at. And this is if you actually saved the guy. Criminal charges of assault or attempted murder. Civil charges trying to take everything that you own.

a few months back a backpacker came in to a local trauma center that i was at and the doctor said the only reason he was still alive was self surgery.

I really want to know what this was. I'm not being a wise guy. I really want to know the situation. Also let’s be very clear on the difference in doing something to yourself and "helping" someone else with your medical skills that you actually don’t have legally.

KR
 
My wife is a CRNA. She put together a small trauma pack for our travel kit. It contains some basic things; bandages, topical anesthetic, disinfectant, cleaning supplies, sterile wash, airway kit, suture kit, portable cauterizer.

She knows how to use all that stuff, and lots more.

Andy
 
I agree the need to do self or untrained surgery should be taken very seriously. I think the advent of these kits came about about after 911.
There was always the option of the mil-surplus type of field surgical kits, but, after 911, just like gas masks, these surgery kits started showing up. There is money to be made from fear, don'tcha know!
There were many thousands, maybe millions of gas maks sold that won't do diddly against chem or bio, but people bought them.

Others look at these surgical kits for SHTF, Biblical Event where everyone is on their own, hospitals are non-existant, and we are back to raising our own food and stockpiling ammo for the impending Alamo in the frontyard.
i guess in that case it would be better than a dull knife and band aid.

I could see being able to irrigate a wound, throw a quick "temporary" stitch in it (knowing it will have to re-opened inside of 12 or 24 hours and done properly). Scalpels? wow, pretty serious stuff. And with no anesthesia? We are talking CivilWar era or worse type of procedure.

I'll defer to kr1 and Confederate as the resident pros and take their advice.
A well put together first aid kit, and a class or two. Due to my work I have had First Aid classes and kept current for the past 25 years, it's good stuff to be able to clear an airway, splint a fracture, or bandage a fleshwound, but I'd never want to be cutting on anyone.
 
As an 18yr EMT I think these kits fall into the Rambo knife catagory. MOST of the people that own them are all hat and no cattle. Sutures have some value especially if you own livestock. Butterfly closures are much safer to use on humans. Remember to irrigate wounds very, very well and leave out the Betadine and other chemicals.
 
I'm glad I asked, and thanks to those who replied. I'm definitely not a surgeon, so I'll just stick with the first aid kit and keep it simple! Thanks again! -Matt-
 
I have stitched my face up a few times, and i have also had to do a few minor repairs of others in the field. The EMT that have answered speak as people who get there when they are ready to transport someone to a fully equipped medical center. What happens when that is not going to happen? I am not a surgeon, but I have been places where having a disposable scalpel, some betadyne and some suture flats and forceps have meant the difference between a miserable trip out and making it ok, If you have to do it and you got it with you, you can do it a lot better, if you don't have it with you and you need it, you are screwed. There are some other options as well, such as superglue and the like.

My one life saving use of the stitch kit was to do a tracheotomy on a guy who was fishing with us and had a mongo allergic reaction to something and was turning blue from lack of O2 and we figured the one shot was to go below his swelling and give him and airway. We used the casing from a cigar tube as the airway, it was really too big but all we had at the time, After we had gotten his airway open and him breathing again we discovered that he had an epi pen in his gear and we were able to give him that shot.

When we did this, he was blue, eyes rolled back and his mouth and face swelled up like a balloon. It was our opinion he was dead anyway, and cutting an airway was only chance we had. With ten minutes of him getting the shot, he was recovering. The doc's at the landing who met us when we came in said we had saved his life.

I have also used the sterile staples to close a few deep cuts and a couple of fish hook/skin war zones.

I have mainly used the staples on dogs who have had run ins with fences or sharp rocks out hunting. Again, douse the sight in peroxide, staple from the top down, or the front to the back and leave a small place open for festering stuff to drain.

butterflys are nice, but in wet, high stress situation they just don't stick.
 
I would have to agree in most situations you should not use one. As for owning one, I think one should be a part of everyones main first aid supplies. Not so much for self use but in a real SHTF situation it would probably be easier to find a doctor or medic than a doctor or medic with supplies.
 
The EMT that have answered speak as people who get there when they are ready to transport someone to a fully equipped medical center. What happens when that is not going to happen?

Actually you are only partly correct. I am both an EMT that works in the back of an ambulance in my local fire department but I am also a certified wilderness EMT who often works with SAR teams and am often in the woods miles (read hours) from an ambulance, let alone a hospital. I also teach wilderness medicine and SAR to my local fire department as well as other local orginizations. I understand the accepted protocols in place for treatment of people who will not get to a hospital within the golden hour. You may sometimes hear these protocols called either wilderness or extended care protocols. Whacking away at someones neck with a knife is a very dangerous activity. If your friend had instead told you about his allergies it would have been a lot easier on everyone if you could have just given him his epi instead of trying to do what amounts to a cric. You didn't make it clear if the doctor was praising the fact you applied the epi or if it was the cric that saved him.

Also you may want to tell your freind that he should wear a medical alert braclet. That may allow others to know that his treatment is in his pocket. Not in your surgical kit. :D

Anytime I go in the woods with someone I don't know I usually ask if they carry, or are supposed to carry an epi and if they do for what or if they are prone to seizures or any other medical problems. Most are willing to give me their medical history and tell me any medications that they take, at least when I tell them I am an EMT. I will also ask them if they mind me telling the group so that everyone knows what to look for if they have a problem. Especially if I happen to not be around.

butterflys are nice, but in wet, high stress situation they just don't stick.

Dry the skin and apply tincture of benzoin to the margins of the wound. Don't get it in the wound, it will burn like hell. Wait a couple of seconds until it gets tacky and apply the butterflies or sterie strips and they will stay in place.


KR
 
He was allergic to nuts/legumes, He had had none, it was was from eating a product that had no nuts listed on the label, and he went so fast he did not have time to talk about it, we were a ways away from him when the reaction happened.

When we pulled up at the boat ramp, (this was in Northern Mn we had been camping about 3 lakes and two portages away from the ramp,) we had called in to tell them we were coming as soon as we had cell phone reception. The Doc who was there commented that we had done a good job, that we had cut only as much as we had to, and that there would be little scaring to show after it healed. I had seen one performed before and knew where to cut, the location below the adams apple and on the cartilage area means very little blood, almost no risk for "hacking" anything that should not be cut, and an area that is easy to keep clean.


most suture sights are easy to keep clean too, the moderate cuts like a slipped knife or a leg gash from slipping and hitting something sharp or a hockey stick to the chin or brow of nose are easy to sew up, just remember if you are looking in a mirror to shut your eyes when you tie the know as it is hard to do in the mirror. plain old Cepacol oral antiseptic and pain reliever is nearly as good as novacaine in my experience.




IN a game in ontario, I once stitched up my chin between shifts, after a while you get pretty good at it.
 
Minor wound care, stitching, etc. is not rocket science. Anyone with a lick of sense and basic training can stop bleeding, remove foriegn matter, clense a wound, apply a dressing, or stitches if that is what is called for. Emergency airways are the same. I would not dig a bullet from a sucking chest wound, but I can and have tied off bleeders, stitched my own self as needed. Is a layman suposed to stand by while a guy chokes on his own blood, gushes from a severed artery? I do keep a stocked kit with basic surgical weapons...er...tools. And I am not afraid to use them!!:D

I do, however understand the medicos reluctance to promote, or even allow laymen to invade their sphere of expertise. I don't want a kid with a rusty pocketknife trying to do an apendectomy on me!

Codger
 
Well this is a revelation to me as I had stocked my first aid kit with a variety of needles and various silk and dental floss. To those who have posted, I take your advice seriously and I would back off with extreme prejudice.

Does anybody rememember the old "Mash" episode where they did a field tracheotomy using a pocket knife and the plastic barrel from a fountain pen? (not that that's anything we should consider!)

I think the treatment of serious wounds is something that we all should consider, however.

When I was 8 years old, I accidentally stabbed myself in the left thigh, right through the femural artery, blood everywhere; fortunately my father, a combat veteran, was right there to apply a tourniquet and compress the wound; and shortly thereafter, luckily for me, we had a doctor on hand to sew me up.

What would you do for yourself or another in a similar situation? I think most of us would do what needed to be done and to hell with the consequences.

I know this is all hypothetical, but so are most of the scenarios we bring up on this forum. I think that knowing what has to be done under extreme circumstances is at least good knowledge...but I agree, being treated by somebody less knowledgeable could be catastrophic.
 
Back
Top