Fighting 'hawk design questions.

V

Vaunripped

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Nov 20, 2010
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So over the last month or so I have been trying my hand at knife making. With the limited tools I have to work with I'm very pleased with what I have. Now I want to try my hand at a 'hawk. With the knife I had a good idea of what I wanted. The 'hawk on the other hand, I have a good idea what I want it to do, but not much on how it should be shaped. I'm planning on using 5160 spring steel mostly because its tough, and I know some guys at a local blade shop that know how to heat treat it.

Ok, so I want it to be a fighting 'hawk, not a breaching tool, full tang and spiked. Now for the questions, mostly geared to those who have used or trained with 'hawks as weapons.

How long is good for carry, but long enough to get good power into a chop or slash?

How wide should the head be? edge to point of the spike? Bottom of the "beard" to the top of the head? (I still don't know if that's the right term for the bottom corner of the edge)

I'm looking at both Winkler and RMJ type shapes, What do you like/dislike about them?

Removable or solid (like epoxied and bolted) slabs?

Edge profile, more knife like for cutting or more axe like for strength?

I'm in no way trying to step on toes for design infringement or what ever it would be. I'm more looking at what seems to work. This will be for me, myself and I, to use and play with. The idea is that this will be the second part of my CQZC (close quarters zombie combat :D ) set up.

I know there is a lot I'm not even thinking of, and I'm asking a lot of "noobish" (for lack of a better term) questions, but this is something I have never done before. I figure I'll ask here were I know there are "hawk fans and makers that have a lot better idea of what works than I do.

Thanks for any incite and help.


Ok, sorry about this, I ran it by the blade smiths I know and got a Gibbs style head slap. This is more than I can chew.

delete or what ever.

Thanks for the time
 
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Vaunripped said:
How long is good for carry, but long enough to get good power into a chop or slash?
Click to expand...

I buy tomahawks for the heads because it's rare to find them with a handle of 20"+. I've got to have a minimum of 20" or the hawk doesn't feel right to me. If I need shorter length I can always choke up on it but if I need length it won't magically appear on a short handle.

When I re-haft, I start long and remove bits of it until if feels right, and that's usually 21" to 23".

But I'm 6'5". Your mileage may vary.
 
I would guess that one's fighting style, strength, and arena are very important factors. I currently have a Winkler-Sayoc RnD on order, that "seems" like the best fighting design to me.
The curved handle is appealing, looks lie it will be very aggressive on the attack, and that second grip higher up means it can be used like a knife, up close and slashy like. The other big thing is the full, but tapered, tang. Lots of hawks are full tang, and some have lightening holes, and I have yet to hold one of those. Either way, if you don't lighten up that tang, I feel that the over all weight, and distrubution of mass is out of balance.
That's why I feel the Ontario RD Hawk is less of a fighter more of a breacher. Same goes for the GG&G Battlehawk, at 44 oz is got an awesome amount of power, but it's not lively of quick in my hands.
Although I have not held on of the RMJ's, they seem awesome. I like the I-Beam shaped tangs, that's a stronger, lighter way to keep weight at the head. The straight handle/tang is used on these, and I would think that allows for equal use of the blade and the spike.
Once I get my Winkler I'll know more about the feel, but at 1.5 lbs, I'm sure it will live up to it's "alive" feel. And that is the most important part, it should be an extension of your being, not just a hunk of steel.
 
Vaunripped,

It's always nice to know someone's trying on newer stuff!

How long is good for carry, but long enough to get good power into a chop or slash?
I would say not more than 14". Do you want more defense or heft? You could have both but you've gotta be really ripped for it.
I'm looking at 12" for CQC.
At 18" wise i would opt for breaching type with some utility in mind.

I found the old tomahawks have the best head to handle ratio in terms of design. Much like punching.
If i could only combine modern and ancient design into one that will be Magua Hawk;14" of full but tapered tang along with g-10 slabs (the X'Mas tree handle profile is indeed grippy enough), Edge width at about 3-3.5"? You also want an enlarged butt for retention.
 
That Szabo combat hawk looks like it'a an ice climbers axe on steroids, and it's pissed! I can see how the wrist strap can add some stability and control, not to mention retention.
Pretty cool.

Borrowing some ideas, using some time proven designs can only get you so far. At some point a "new" hawk just has to be built and tested. The level of research and the development of a new design or fighting technique is really where the true evolution begins. Not all hawk designs are loved by everyone, but if it works better for some application, well there's a reason to make it.
Sometimes, I think about the relationships. Hawk weight vs. user strength. Arms length vs. hawk length. Speed vs. power. Edge: thin and sharp vs. thicker and tough. Pointy vs. curved.
How long is the spike, and why? Does a spike on a fighter need to be very long, will it be going up against helmets, armor, tires, glass, and does it need to be able to "hook". Or does the beard do the hooking?
Sorry to ramble on, just lots of aspects to a hawk.
All these need to be balanced in a way appropriate for the intented use and user/user technique.
 
Thanks for all the info, but I ran into a few problems early that is going to take time to get around. Namely skill, as in I don't have enough of it right yet. The other problem is sourcing the steel here locally, but mostly its the skill I need to gain before I start a project like this.

When I wrote up the post I was thinking it couldn't be that much harder than a knife.....Ya, well as it turns out I was wrong. A good long talk with a few guys that have been working on a 'hawk for some time now convinced me of that.

Again thanks for the time and incite, I'm bookmarking this page so I can come back to it when I have more experience under my belt.
 
Just a thought, but some guys make cardboard versions of knives or hawks before going to steel. I have a plastic training hawk, and a Winkler-Sayoc trainer on the way. There you would have the ability to at least get a scope of size and shape, a feel for the reach, length, curvatures, etc..
Weight would come with the steel, but it's just a thought. Don't give up, hawks are awesome.
 
LOL, no, you misunderstood, I'm not giving up, just putting it on the back burner. I still have a few blades worth of steel on hand that are going to get made, along with a grinder. Just a matter of getting a few more tools and a better skill set to work with.
 
Once you get your steel situation worked out, think of it this way: this is your first combat hawk, not your last. Nobody expects it to be the best design ever or even your best design ever. Don't think about it too hard and just make something. Then play with it. If there is something you don't like about it, you can change it next time. Making something you don't like is going to teach you much more about design than drawing 1000 pictures.

- Chris
 
Vaun....try to get use of an oxy acetalene torch and some carbon steel in 1/4" to 3/8" thick big enough for your project. I started way back in '96 cutting them out of high carbon plate steel I got from the junkman and then torch cutting them out. Grind off the slag with a 4" grinder then grind to final shape. So far you should be into it about 25 for the grinder and another 25 or so for the plate. Mark off with a soap pencil the grind lines and then grind your edges close to shape and don't try to push it....take your time. Keep it cool as possible while you are working it. File or sand with belt sander to final shape and touch up areas as needed. Now would be the time to drill any holes and such before heat treatment. When everything is smooth as you want it, get a bucket of used vegetable oil from frying your turkey or from a local food joint and go back to the torch. Heat the EDGES (about 1/2" from edge) up to orange the color of a cooked carrot (try this in darker area) then quench each end as you get it orange in the bucket until stops bubbling and making a nuisance of itself. Let it cool there and go do something else for a bit.

Here is where you need to have an understanding wife or significant other...

Take out the hawk as done and then wipe clean of all oil...even solvent clean if possible. Take it to your residential oven and turn it on to ...well as a guess I would try 485 degrees. Put the hawk in before starting it. Wait till 10 minutes after the oven indicates it is at temperature and then start timing it for 3 hours. Let it go. When done drop it in a big bucket of water. This is the fun part. This is the old school way of doing this. It will bring the body of the hawk pretty close to spring steel with a hard edge of about R56 or so...which is perfect for a hawk. You might want to use the vent fan if you forget to clean the oil off the hawk. Now if you want to powdercoat it or I would suggest some kind of gun coat for a nice camo pattern and then re heat it for the finish after you fine glass bead the surface to rough it up a bit. Or you can leave it with the decarb color which should be a nice blue in the body and blacker toward the edge. Wrap the handle with 550 cord or put slabs on the handle as needed. Anything else...message me...


Brad
 
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13 inches long is about the perfect size for me for a fighting hawk. If it’s a modern interpretation of a fighting tomahawk the compact size is needed for CQC situation in confined spaces.

The purpose of the modern fighting hatchet in my opinion is as a fast way to neutralize an active attacker when a riffle or gun is not an option (over penetration). The holstering system is going to be a big factor for any hawk that is going to be used for something like this.

The blade profile for most battle axes is actually very thin. The knife type edge of the Sayoc Winkler axe is a good example of this, they will be cutting trough flesh not wood.

The added advantage of a spike to a hawk will give you an option for a deep penetrating weapon that can be used immediately if you identify some sort of armor of thick clothing on your opponent.

The beard can be used to hook an opponents arm or shoulder and pull the attacker forward or to the ground and fallow up with a blow to the head of neck.
 
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The very cool thing to me about the tomahawk as a fighting weapon is the versatility it offers. The beard hooks (gotta have a beard!), the head can be used as a thrusting/jabbing weapon to give additional reach, the blade can both slice and hack, and the poll/spike offers an additional striking option. You can also deliver really effective smashes with the pommel of the handle. I really like a narrow hammer poll - it delivers an absolutely devastating smashing blow while allowing safer choking up and reducing the possibility of getting hung up on clothes or accidental self-injury.
 
Holy butt load of good info here. I'm starting to feel less like a fool for posting this now.

broe, rather than mystery metal I'm thinking I'm going to order up some of Aldo's 1084 in like 1/4", from every thing I have read it performs really well with "backyard heat treating". I'm still a ways out from there though, still have a lot of work to do to my current project knife.

Thanks Edwood7, that's the type of incite I was hoping to find.

Burke I agree 100%, they have fascinated me since I was little.
 
That will work fine...other options would be 5160/50. 1095, 1085, my favorite 4140, and so on.
 
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