Fighting/light utility and combat/utility difference?

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Valte2003

Joined
Dec 21, 2013
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I'm in a bit of a debate with a friend, he says that there is truly no difference between a fighting/utility knife and a combat/utility knife, I say that there is still some difference beacause look at the most recognized fighting military knife, the Ka-Bar USMC, looking at it's shape you notice that it is made for stabbing, it has a prominent cross-gurad with which you can actually parry an incoming knife attack from an enemy, the handle is made such to allow very good retention when wet (with blood on it probably) and it has a pommel at the back (for bludgeoning), and if you look at the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger (a FIGHTING ONLY blade) you'll notice the Ka-Bar has many common elements with it, it's just that the Ka-Bar can also perform some slashing attacks and cut through rope or something, and let us look at a combat utility knife, like the ESEE 6 clip point version, first of all it's bigger and bulkier, the clip point is more optimized for stabbing but the blade is such that it can probably serve for utility better than a Ka-bar and it doesn't have the same cross-guard as the Ka-Bar (which limits the ability to parry), so in the end, I belive that I am right and that fighting/utility knives are generally meant for CQCB and can serve in a small extent as utility knives and combat/utility knives are more of a breed between a fighting knife and a pure military survival knife (like the ESEE 5 or Fallkniven F1) who do you think is right people, me or my friend?
 
If you look at history and see what bladeshapes mankind have used on the battlefield througout the ages there really isn't a single dominant form. But for utility work there is a good benifit to a broader unsharpened spine. Any half decent knife will work for "combat", not every decent knife will be fit for utility work.
 
Valte2003 said:
i was wrong and my friend was right... anyway thanks for answering
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There is a difference between a pure fighting knife, and a combat/utility knife, but I wouldn't be making new categories out of marketing descriptors (fighting/combat is the same thing). So yeah, you're friend was right, but I see you're kinda new here, welcome to the forums. No problem with thinking about the knives you like; you made some clear distinctions there, and that's the same type of things that those very designers had in mind - a compromise between fighting and utility. How much do we need of each element? You're probably right that the Ka Bar has more fighting knife characteristics than the Essee 5. Fallikniven makes the F1 which shares more traits with a utility bush knife, and the A1 that is closer to a fighting knife. Different jobs call for different uses. You have the right idea, but maybe taking it to an extreme.
 
NetshadeX said:
If you look at history and see what bladeshapes mankind have used on the battlefield througout the ages there really isn't a single dominant form. But for utility work there is a good benifit to a broader unsharpened spine. Any half decent knife will work for "combat", not every decent knife will be fit for utility work.
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i think you got that backwards.
i dont really care what i use for "utility" as long as it has a workable edge. of course a properly made tool will make the job easier, but the job can still get done w/o much problem either way.
but for "combat" i want a specific design with specific features.
 
Flash Owl said:
i think you got that backwards.
i dont really care what i use for "utility" as long as it has a workable edge. of course a properly made tool will make the job easier, but the job can still get done w/o much problem either way.
but for "combat" i want a specific design with specific features.
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Mmm, I reckon he got it just about right. I would much rather use a chefs knife than a zt for cutting potatoes. But you could poke somebody just fine with either one. Actually the chefs knife would probably work better for that too. :-).
 
Surfingringo said:
Mmm, I reckon he got it just about right. I would much rather use a chefs knife than a zt for cutting potatoes. But you could poke somebody just fine with either one. Actually the chefs knife would probably work better for that too. :-).
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sure, if youre ambushing someone. hell, a sharpened wooden stick would work just fine for poking too.
i cant ever remember an incident when a potato threatened my life... if fact, ive cut the hell out of potatoes before with my Victorinox mulitool. it wasnt pretty, but it got the job done. just dont ask me to dice a sack of potatoes with it...
 
I think knives that are designed for combat have definite features. One of those features is a large double hilt to protect the hand and fingers. IMO, if the knife does not have a double hilt, it's not a true fighter. To me, the reference standard for combat knives is the Randall Model 1.
 
I don't really think of knives as "fighting" weapons. Weapons of quick murder? Yes. Weapons you wanted to duel with? Not so much.

If I were looking for a knife for "fighting" I would want something with broad quillions to catch and deflect an opponent's blade. A long blade 6+ inches, and a clip point with sharpened false edge for a quick back cut. From a guide to bowie fighting it seems a double edged knife has a tendency to bind with an opponent's blade while the unsharpened back of the bowie style knife allows the opponent's blade to slide and be directed away from the body.

Still, I really wouldn't use a knife for "fighting". I think it's been said nicely, the difference between the winner and loser in a knife fight is that the winner dies in the ambulance.
 
People are hurt and even killed by potatoes every year. Usually from food poisioning by consuming baked potatoes that have sat at a buffet line too long. Clostridium botulinium and Bacilus cereus are two of the major culprits. People come across these villains more often than knife wielding ninja assasins. Perhaps there is a market for 'tactical sanitizers.'
 
Sorry for being so blunt...I am making assumptions about your background and experience but in many circles that would be a silly question to ask. 16 years years of martial arts here, 7 of that Kali (edged weapons). Dont get mad just think about the following....Anything w/ an edge can be used and can hurt you. A cheap 2inch blade on a corner store $5 knife will do as much damage as a $300 ZT. And the bonus...you can toss the $5 knife or get it confiscated and not worry about losing $300 on your "tactical Fighting Knife" while sitting in jail.
ANY KNIFE is 'effin dangerous in a knife fight!
There are so many edged weapon styles and ways to train that it comes down to how you have been taught and what you are comfortable holding or carrying. I dont carry my $300 EDC as a weapon...One, I dont want it taken away when the cops show up, two, getting in a knife fight is pretty amazingly dumb. My Judo buddy grappled a mugger who attacked him w/ a knife, he is now unable to use his right arm after the knife severed a nerve...who won in that exchange?
My point is...discussing about what is a good combat knife tells me that a person has little experience in actual combat and should not be asking such questions.
 
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Puer Aeternus said:
....in many circles that would be a silly question to ask. 16 years years of martial arts here, 7 of that Kali (edged weapons). Dont get mad just think about the following....Anything w/ an edge can be used and can hurt you. A cheap 2inch blade on a head shop $5 knife will do as much damage as a $300 ZT. And the bonus...you can toss the $5 knife or get it confiscated and not worry about losing $300 on your "tactical Fighting Knife" while sitting in jail.

My point is...discussing about what is a good combat knife tells me that a person has little experience in actual combat and should not be asking such questions.
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A 2" blade on a shoddy plastic knife will not do as much damage as a knife that was made with serving a dual purpose role as a weapon and utility duties in mind. The length of the blade is probably the most important aspect of how much damage a knife can do in a modern combat role.

Toss the knife?? Sorry, but OP is talking about using a knife in a military role, not street fighting with their kung fu buddies - according to your Spiel, the U.S. Army should have given M-Tech their coveted contracts for knife manufacturing. The knife a soldier carries will be used much more for utility than fighting, but the military is a dangerous job and there are some soldiers that carry pure fighting knives just as a measure of preparation. They wouldn't be looking to get in a fair 1 on 1 knife fight with switchblades or goloks - their knife is a last ditch solution that very rarely used unless for some reason using their firearm is not an option. BTW, members here are law abiding, and throwing away a knife that you just used in an attack is not something a law abiding citizen that just happened to use his pocket knife in self defense would do. It's a piece of evidence that will play a big part in your case for self-defense, and throwing it away before the cops come screams guilty.

The whole thing about using any knife, throwing away a knife and fleeing the scene, and giving edged weapon training credentials sounds like regurgitated Internet dogma about knife fighting. You know who discusses what is a good combat knife? Soldiers getting ready to deploy looking for their last bit of supplies that they feel are crucial. There are many soldiers with tons of combat experience that come here and many other places for advice about what knife fits their role the best - and as far as I know you can ask whatever questions you want.
 
I think the OP just asked a general knowledge type question about combat/utility knives. I see no indication that he intended to engage in knife combat. knives have lots of history and have been used as both tools and weapons. Part of the fun of knives is learning about how some knives are designed and why they have certain features. Just because someone has an interest in combat/fighting type knives does not mean they intend to use them in that way.
 
A Justice said:
A 2" blade on a shoddy plastic knife will not do as much damage as a knife that was made with serving a dual purpose role as a weapon and utility duties in mind. The length of the blade is probably the most important aspect of how much damage a knife can do in a modern combat role.
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Yes it will....take a shoddy "sharp knife"...wrap some pork in saran wrap and give a light slice or poke..see how deep it slices or penetrates (pork in saran wrap simulates skin and tissue damage). try the same w/ your 'spensy knife and write back. Obviously a well built knife will last longer, serve more purposes and be reliable. I just did a knee jerk forum post based on people I've trained with who spend hours debating the best fighting knife only to get their a$$ handed to them when sparring...and realizing that it did not matter what was in their hand, its how they used it.
 
Puer Aeternus said:
Yes it will....take a shoddy "sharp knife"...wrap some pork in saran wrap and give a light slice or poke..see how deep it slices or penetrates (pork in saran wrap simulates skin and tissue damage). try the same w/ your 'spensy knife and write back. Obviously a well built knife will last longer, serve more purposes and be reliable. I just did a knee jerk forum post based on people I've trained with who spend hours debating the best fighting knife only to get their a$$ handed to them when sparring...and realizing that it did not matter what was in their hand, its how they used it.
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I don't have to. I know it can't penetrate more than 2" if the blade is 2". It would have a hard time even penetrating the clothing I'm wearing right now. What is making light slices or pokes supposed to test? The whole idea with the development of combat knives is that during a hard thrust, a 6" Sykes Fairbarn knife will penetrate much easier than a case with a spey blade. A 2" shoddy knife is much closer to the spey blade than the fairbarn sykes knife, and people that are much more experienced in warfare than anyone you will meet on the Internet came to that conclusion decades ago, and have made a lot of money on the applicability of that fact in practice. Your training is an illusion on an Internet knife forum, and if it wasn't and everyone acknowledged you as some kind of authority it wouldn't apply to OP's post (although if Ernest Emerson said that a 5$ Mtech with a 2" blade was capable of inflicting the same wounds as a custom fighting bowie with an 11" blade of equal sharpness, most would have a hard time entertaining that idea).

Precisionshootist said it best "I think the OP just asked a general knowledge type question about combat/utility knives. I see no indication that he intended to engage in knife combat."

I have spent a lot more time sparring while training for martial arts than I have debating the best fighting knife, but it's not applicable and in many circles (like on anonymous Internet forums that aren't specifically for martial arts) it makes you sound silly to reference such things during a discussion. I have never met anyone with solid experience that presents sweeping generalities like relevant information. A master practictioner in any fighting art can make a point that stands on its own merit, and would not detract from that by repeatedly referencing their black belt. I welcome your tests showing the destruction the 2" blade of an Mtech can make; when you show that in your hands it is capable of inflicting the same level of damage a 7" Ka Bar does, I'm sure it will attract lots of interest from companies that produce such knives.
 
Confucious once say "a knife is whatever it is used for."

In other words unless you have done combat with a knife it is not a combat knife, until you have fought with any given knife the "combat" part of it is only theory. The same applies for the word "fighting" inserted where "combat" is.

I would venture that you could classify most knives into these catergories,

Daggers/Dirks
Hunting
Kitchen
Folding/EDC
Utility/Camping
Bushcraft (I only give it it's own place because Bushcrafter's are very particular in blade style, size, and ergos)

If it doesn't fit into one of the above, then it will generally fall into one of the overflow catergories

Tacti-Cool
Junk/Wallhanger
 
Wow. Lot of folks trying to artificially cram knives into categories that don't exist. Of course, I can peel and dice 10 pounds of potatoes and slash you with my Case peanut. But that's hardly the point.

A well designed knife is designed to do something particular....even if that is "do an OK job at about everything." The only reason anybody should be debating what "category" to put a knife in is if: 1) one doesn't know why a knife is designed the way it is, or 2) the designer didn't know why he was designing the knife the way he did.

Strange thread. :confused:
 
Firestrike said:
I would venture that you could classify most knives into these catergories,

Daggers/Dirks
Hunting
Kitchen
Folding/EDC
Utility/Camping
Bushcraft (I only give it it's own place because Bushcrafter's are very particular in blade style, size, and ergos)

If it doesn't fit into one of the above, then it will generally fall into one of the overflow catergories

Tacti-Cool
Junk/Wallhanger
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What about agricultural and industrial knives? What about the original Bowie knives? What about Moras? They are utility knives...until somebody invented the word "bushcraft" and latched on to them. What about a knife that is used for camping/hunting? What about the people who edc fixed blades? What about the old Jet Pilot Survival knife? Or the "KaBar"? Where do those go?
 
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