File knife making problems

U

USMC_ROCKO

Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
39
I have been making knifes out of Nicolson files for a bit now and , I did a great stock removal and great edge, handle and everything except my blade edge bends when I do a brass rod test , and I fully annealed them to non magnetic and stuck them in ash to cool down slow, then clean them up and put them in oven for an hour and a half at 350' then take them out and quench them in water, I mean am I doing something wrong and if so what is the best way to anneal, harden, and temper a file knife for a good edge.
 
I read your profile
"About USMC_ROCKO Biography
I am 21 years old and have been playing with knifes and making knifes since I was 10 , and now am starting a knife buisness. "



So you have 11 years of knife and knifemaking experience?


I think you still don't fully understand the heat treating process and terms.

Read this
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...aling-or-Heat-treating.?p=9143684#post9143684

Watch this
www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4


Yes it seems you softened - or annealed your file. "red hot and slow cool"
It is what allows you to file and sand your file-blade


You still have to harden it to be full hard, then temper then usable.
In the most basic terms, Red hot and quench, then kitchen oven to temper

It's more complicated than that.
File steel is even worse.
Try some good knife steel and send it out for pro heat treatment
or for a diy HT, use Aldo's 1084

Have you seen the answers in this thread ?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/889081-file-knife-stock-removal-help.
 
Last edited:
I am so sorry that I put I have been making knifes for 11 years, I love knifes and have been playing with and collecting them for years is what I meant to put and also started to make knifes 3 months ago.
 
Rocko you did not harden the blades. I would recommend doing a class with a knifemaker. Don't know how close you are to Tucson, but you might want to give Tai Goo a call. He was my first teacher and does a great job esp if you are using found materials. Oh by the way it is Knives not knifes.
 
read the stickys at the top of the page you have your processes mixed up and possibly a more user friendly steel. read the one for newbies and how to make a knife. they should get you pointed in the right direction. read them and your results will be much better,good luck.....willy
 
Yes, I would put the business plans on hold for a while longer and learn how knives are made. You made a knife from annealed steel.....not a good business ethic.

If you would go back and re-read your posting on Sept 8th, you would see that you were just then trying to figure out how to make a file knife...but said you have been doing it for six months.
Now you say you have been doing it for three months, but clearly don't know how to do it yet.
You have changed several statements on abilities and equipment from post to post.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/889081-file-knife-stock-removal-help.

I would suggest you stop and take the time to learn what you need to know, as advised two months ago.

There is no shame in being a new maker with no skills, and great honor in being up front about it. You will impress no one here by making claims that are clearly untrue.

There are several good makers in your area. I would fess up that you are just a youth trying to learn, and go see one. The visit could set you on a good path. Continuing on the one you have started will not go anywhere.

I'll address one further issue....your user name USMC_ROCKO.
There are a lot of proud Marines and other active/former service members on this forum. They, and those who respect their service, don't take kindly to people inferring ( or lying ) about being a Marine. If there is a good reason you took this user name, it should be explained in your profile. I would edit it soon to remove the 11 years knifemaking and business claims, and add the reason you use that name.
 
I am sorry Stacy E.Apelt, I changed ok sir and if you cant understand my about me now then, I dont know what else to say.
 
Now we know why you call yourself USMC_ROCKO. No need to discuss it further.

Welcome to the forums, and please ask all the questions you need. There is a wealth of knowledge here.

Maybe someone around Phoenix will give you an invite to come over and make some knives....How about it guys?
 
okay one of my questions is should I stick with trying to make knifes out of files or should I get 1084 steel from Aldo, I like the files but I am not tempering them right. I tried it again today and I got my file red hot and quenched it in water in a cutting the water motion, and it was very brittle. How I know is I tested a scrap piece and hit it with a water after quenched in water and shaterd in pieces. Should I stick with the files or go for the 1084. I am really needing your guys help.
 
Look man, here's the process:
Heat to austenizing temp and slow cool to anneal or soften.
Work the blade, grind, file it, whatever.
Heat to austeninzing, hold for prescribed time to let the carbon go into solution.
Quench in whatever prescribed fluid (oil, water, air) at whatever prescribed temperature for the prescribed time.
Temper, or slightly soften, the steel by baking in an oven at a specific temp for a specific amount of time. This makes the knife less brittle.

That's it. The details of the steps vary with steel type, but those are the basics. Do you understand why your steel shattered now?

For the love of Pete, get a piece of 1084 from Aldo or somewhere else and stop messing around with files. Learn the craft first and then experiment.
 
The entire process is well explained in the stickies. I will link the one on HT:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...etta-Stone-of-Metallurgy-Lots-of-HT-info-here

Read about Annealing , Normalizing, Hardening, and Tempering. If you still don't understand the difference between hardening and annealing ( softening) then post another question and we will see if we can walk you through it. This is another good reason to find a nearby maker, as seeing this done will make it all clear.

When I bring a new maker to my shop, I take a piece of thin 1095 , or an old file, and let him try to file on it for a minute. Then we anneal it. Now it files better, but will bend with firm hand pressure. Then we water quench it. If it doesn't break on its own, I have him try and bend it in his hands. It will break like glass. Then we temper what is left back to about Rockwell 58. It now files a bit hard, but won't break when you try and bend it. This usually gets the relationship between the three procedures clear.

The only steel I would suggest to a new maker is 1084. Without experience and equipment, any other steel will be harder to get a good knife out of. Files should be used to make knives with, not make knives out of.
Aldo's 1084 is great steel to start on.

Let me know what size knife you plan on making, and I will send you a piece of 1084 that size. If you wish, you can email me a sketch of the knife, and I will profile the cut out for you. No charge for any of this.
 
USMC_ROCKO said:
okay one of my questions is should I stick with trying to make knifes out of files or should I get 1084 steel from Aldo, I like the files but I am not tempering them right. I tried it again today and I got my file red hot and quenched it in water in a cutting the water motion, and it was very brittle. How I know is I tested a scrap piece and hit it with a water after quenched in water and shaterd in pieces. Should I stick with the files or go for the 1084. I am really needing your guys help.
Click to expand...

Please pay attention to what Stacy has told you, it is solid advice, all of it. Get some 1084 from Aldo, whether you buy it yourself or take Stacy up on his more than generous offer. For the love of all that is holy PLEASE READ THE STICKIES!

BTW, the plural of knife is knives
the correct spelling for what happened to your file is shattered (shaterd is a contraction of the past tense of sh%t combined with the hillbilly variation of the word "turd")

Welcome to Bladeforums. Stacy is one of the most patient and generous people you will ever have the pleasure of talking to (emphasis on patient)

I think you are finding out that you can't just call yourself a knifemaker and go into business doing it if you haven't the faintest idea what is going on in your steel. Pay attention and read ALL of the stickies and ask questions of anything you don't understand (and actually follow the advice) and you may learn to make good knives

-Page
 
I agree with everyone here, READ THE STICKIES!

But I'll explain how I would HT a file knife. I've heard most files are made of 1095. What I do to HT that steel is
Normalize 2-3 times
Heat to nonmagnetic (then a bit more), which is a cherry red usually. Quench in canola oil (at least that's what I use) heated to 150F.
Temper in the oven at 425 (hotter for a big knife, cooler for a small knife) for 2 one hour cycles, allowing to cool in between.

Now, the thing about files is, what if that file isn't 1095? That treatment might crack it, it might be soft, it could shatter when you try to use it... So I would follow the expert's advice and get some 1084.
 
USMC_ROCKO

How's this for a suggestion. Why make learning more difficult than it need be? How about buying some 1080 from Aldo or someone and learn with that. As you get more familiar with the various processes, especially the heat treatment processes, you can apply what you've learned to the files.

Heat treatment is not to be taken lightly. You can have the best steel in the world, but screw up the hardening and tempering and you end up with a piece of junk. I don't find the information particularly easy to absorb and have read many different books, articles, etc, and then I re-read them. Each one approaches the topic from a different viewpoint and with a different presentation so that even though they may cover the same topic I learn something different from each one.

If a person wants to fly a jet they start their flight training with Cessna. Using files for your knives is a good goal for the future when you are better able to work with it because of better skills and knowledge from working with other steel.

- Paul Meske
 
Rocko,
I can't stress how much 1084 will help you make a better knife. The cost of a file is more than the cost of the same amount of 1084. A bar of 1084 from Aldo Bruno will make a bunch of knives. 1/8"X1.5"X48" costs about $14 a bar. His web site is:
http://njsteelbaron.com/

I would make one good knife before you worry about the next five. Read all the stickies, and any books on knifemaking you can borrow from a near by maker, or check out of the library ( Its that old building full of books downtown).

The basic HT procedure is well explained in the stickies. The exact temperatures are found in HT charts or by doing some searches on the steel being used. (Beware - Internet information found on HTing a file is often totally wrong)
For simple carbon steels it is:
Normalize twice
Austenitize by heating evenly to between 1400°F and 1500°F
Quench in oil ( canola oil ,if using non-industrial quenchant. Parks#50 if commercial)
Immediately temper at 400-450°F in the kitchen oven for two hours
Remove and cool with running water ( it won't hurt the blade)
Temper again at 400-450°F for two hours

If using a "backyard" HT method with no control of the austinization temperature, use a magnet to determine when the steel crosses the curie point. The steel will become non-magnetic at about 1350°F. Heat a little redder in color once the magnet stops sticking, and try and hold at that color/temperature for a few minutes....then quench.

Don't drop/bend/hit the blade after quench until it has been tempered, as it will shatter like glass until the brittleness is removed during tempering. It should be tempered immediately after quench, to avoid cracking.

Using a file is just guessing at the steel type and using general range numbers for the HT temperatures. Using 1084 will give you a known steel, and numbers that have been time tested.

Assuming a file to be 1095 ( not a guarantee at all), that makes it hyper-eutectoid...which has a more complex HT. Every file will be a new crap shoot as to what the results will be.
1084 is the eutectoid, which means it has the simplest HT of any steel. Use 1450°F for the austinization, and 400°F for tempering and you will get a superb knife.....every time.

I will still be glad to send you a piece big enough for your next knife project if you wish.
Stacy
 
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