file knife stock removal help.

U

USMC_ROCKO

Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
39
I am just starting out making knifes and the reason I am picking files is they are really good source of high carbon and will make a great knife, anyway I kniw how to anneal them to work with it but I need to cut the knife shapess that I need and I dont want to heat up the blade too much. I thought a hack saw but that would take hours, and the oly other tool I got for cutting metal is a bench grinder and a angle grinder modified into a chop saw. Any Ideas?:)
 
For a guy who says he has been making knives for 11 years, and is starting a knife making business....... this is a strange question :confused:

There is no way to know if a file is good steel or not....many are not. :thumbdn:

You need tools to run a knife making business....a hack saw and a bench grinder are not enough. :thumbdn:

Save the files to make knives with and buy some 1084 .:thumbup:

It takes time to make a knife, and sometimes a lot of time to make a good knife...looking for a short cut is not the way to start.:thumbdn:

Here is the sticky on how to make a knife with the minimum investment in equipment - :thumbup::thumbup:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/694673-How-to-instructions-for-making-a-knife


Take the time to read a few books on knifemaking, and use this search engine for finding answers on Bladeforums - :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra
 
Stacy posted a good point, use files to make knives, not to be knives

But if you want to play around and maybe make a good useable tool, then do this...

If you have annealed the file, then it should already be soft and any grinding won't affect the heat treat, since there is none after you anneal it (heat to non magnetic then allow to cool overnight)

After you profile and grind the blade, normalize it by heating to non magnetic and allow to cool by placing in a bench vise with the tip pointed up

To harden, heat to non magnetic again and quickly quench in oil

To temper, put in 350/400 degree oven depending on the steel type for one hour, do this three times

Re grind to final thickness but be careful not to overheat. If you can't hold on to the blade, it has become too hot. Dip in water often during this process.

Put a handle and edge on and you're done. Do a search for Greene Pete's YouTube videos for more how-to

Jason
 
First off I just made simple knifes like out of leaf springs and old saw blades, but I want to make file knifes cause I made one 6 months ago and it came out great but took forever. I am just trying to look for a faster way to shape my file knifes, and I dont just have bench grinder and angle grinder, I also have a drill press 1x30 belt sander and a 4x36 belt sander , and a 2x72 belt grinder in the process of building.
 
Yesterday you had only a file, a bench grinder and an angle grinder. You were given some good advice and you chose to ignore it. Today, you found a 1X30 and a 4X36 sander.

Not a good start for you...
 
First Semper FI

Second always be open and up front around here, alb1k has a good point about the story changing. It was probably a simple ommission on your part , but looks kinda bad.

Next the file thing has been gone over multiple times here. Good files like a Nickelson can be made into a good knife. But, when you look at the labor resources to anneal it or the extra work to work it in a hardened state it isn't a cheap source. By the time you have it to the same point as a piece of purchased flat bar you have lost time and money.

When you say annealed you do mean that you heated it to around 1500 and let it slow cool to get totally soft, correct? If so it does not matter how hot you get it grinding and shaping as it will need rehardened. If you plan to reharden it on your own you really need a controlled heat source because files are usually 1095 of W1 or 2 both of which need to go 1500 f which is a ways above nonmagnetic. Plus, you need a good quench oil. Yes, heated Canola will work fine on a regular sized knife. Motor oil etc will not. Water works to, but you really need to know exactly what you are doing

If you meant you retempered it by heating in an oven to say 450f to get it to a suitable knife hadrness, you will have to be very careful grinding it to shape to keep it below 450f and not drawing it below a suitable hardness.

That being said. I would used the angle grinder with slicer disks. You should be able to get them at a welding supply. They are between .040 and .045 thick. Make sure your grinder nut will tighten on these disks, if not get the proper nut at the welding store. Wear gloves and a face shield (welder supply) Clamp down your work and let the wheel do the work. Cut in straight lines. NO side pressure. Have water and a sponge to cool the steel. You can get a temp stick at the welder supply. If you got one for say 350f and rubbed some of it off in the file teeth by where you are cutting it would melt and flow at 350 warning you you getting close to to hot. Thats about a fast a way to get a profile on hard steel as I know. Then it will simply take a long time grinding and water dunking to get the bevels and a lot of belts on hard steel. Don't use dull belts, dull belts create heat and if you don't want to reharden your file heat is enemy #1

All that said a a 4 ft piece of 1 1/2 wide 3/16 thick 1084 from Aldo is $20. He had it made up especially for knives and it will make every bit as good a knife as a file. Plus, no worries about over heating, used up belts and disk grinding hardened steel. Plus it is probably as good as it gets for a "backyard" heat treat.
 
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PS If you are good with an angle grinder, you could probably rough grind the bevels with a 1/4" thick disk. Clamp the profiled files tang area down well to a piece of flat bar so the flat bar supports the blade area too. Grind with the flat of the disk working from the tip to the tang. Stop every few seconds and hit the steel with a water soaked sponge. If you make the steel blue you got it to hot and will have to reharden. I have spend many years using angle grinders as a pipe fitter and you can do a lot with them. But, they make heat fast.

Using hardened steel to make a knife is doing it the hard way and the chances to ruin the temper are very high. Faster isn't going to happen. Faster means more heat.

Also a hack saw wouldn't go very far in a knife tempered file before was a gummer.
 
I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V21

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe splits.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, A2,
Or air quenched CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package, slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than youfirst think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V21 Added Glue Oct 3, 2011.
 
First off I apologize alb1k and everyone else for not putting all the tools I have and second is I like all the ideas I was given to grind a file but I allready did tat before and that is why I asked againg to see if there is any other way to do it. And If my story changed it wasnt ment to I was just trying to put down what I had for grinding.
 
I use a jewelers saw with a 0-1 blade after the file has been annealed - makes pretty good work of it.
 
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