File Steel Blades

C

Chabb

Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Messages
9
Hi, I have heard a lot about making knives out of old files, and there are those which say it will make a good, hard knife, and those that say the carbon content is too high to make anything usefully strong enough. if it was feasible, what would be the best course of action for making this knife? would it be better to forge it, or use stock removal? and if using the stock removal method, would it be worth it to anneal, or at least normalize it before starting? also, any tempering tips on this kind of steel would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Chabb
 
Either method will make you a knife, but for stock removal it will have to be annealed. Check out the Green Pete videos on youtube and it will walk you step by step on how to make a primitive knife with simple tools. The issue with files is the steel isn't always known. Nicholson's are the best files, and I hear make the best file knives.

Expect a post from "the Count" with a large list of links, read each one, and go back and read them again. Welcome to Blade Forums!


-Xander
 
Welcome to the BF.
I know that knife making supplies are harder to get down in Kiwiland, but if at all possible get some blade steel and work from that batch. It will most likely give you better knives, and certainly more consistency as you make more of them.
A batch of 1080 or 5160 will be a good start.

I bet Aldo would cut some up to fit in a flat rate mailer box. Give him a call and order some 1.5" wide 1080 in 1/8" and 3/16", or whatever steel types and sizes you want. Have the order come to just below 20 pounds. It costs $45USD to send that by Flat Rate box to NZ. I have done this for overseas chaps who wanted steel from a supplier that wouldn't cut it up for them. I would suggest that you get the steel cut in 8,9,10,and 12" lengths.

Aldo Bruno - AKA The New Jersey Steel baron -
http://njsteelbaron.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=57
 
Last edited:
Get some of Aldo's 1084, it really is the best beginner steel, the extra money it will take to get it to New Zealand is worth it. It is a custom mix he has made up with just a touch of Vanadium which makes it one of the easiest steels to properly heat treat. I made my first couple of knives out of files, that was 30 years ago when files were all made if good steel, These days a lot of files are case hardened crap steel (some are not but those are now the exception) making a knife out of a file is working with mystery metal regardless of whether it is a good steel file or a case hardened one, in the first case you guessing what the steel is, therefore you are guessing on the heat treat, in the second case it just will not harden and you have wasted your time and a lot of expensive abrasive. Aldo's 1084 can be heat treated if necessary in charcoal and quenched in vegetable oil

-Page
 
As predicted, here are the links.

Stacy and Page are right on, use a known steel.

Machine shops use O1, D2 A2 and you should be able to find that there - but they require a professional heat treat to be useful.





I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V15

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings & the Loveless book. Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel, 1070, 1080, 1084.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for knifemaking.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel with great results, but is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very good temperature control and proper fast quench oil Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309



Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here


V15 Added Craftsman speed modification link
 
First off, thanks everyone for your useful advice and resources, and your warm welcomes to the Forum.
I've got a rather limited budget, so I'm going to have to work with what I've got for the moment. any suggestions on where to find suitable recycled steel? I've got an old file and two circular saw blades currently. I have tried to make knives out of the circular saw blades, and had considerable difficulty grinding the bevels, wether hollow or straight, they all turned out convex. I suppose it might have something to do with the saw blades being so thin (3 mm). the file I have got is very old, so I think it may probably be of high carbon steel, and not case hardened. I am also having a hard time finding a suitable heat source. is there any way of using a blowtorch, or maybe a fireplace?
 
Not that we want to chase you away, there is an Australian blade forum that is probably a really good resource on where to get supplies for you.


http://www.australianbladeforums.com/phpbb/



Any circular saw blade I have seen is a carbide tipped, or bimetal blade, meaning the cutting tips are soldered onto a base metal.
The base metal is not effective for knifemaking.

If you are stuck on using a file, see the Green Pete link in my list of links above - he does just that.
 
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