File steel, newbie question

U

Userro

Joined
Dec 10, 2011
Messages
22
Hello everyone, I'm a newbie of knife making and I'm eager to learn and craft some nice blades.
For first, I was thinking of gettin acquainted with the tools doing a simple blade from a file I found, main thing I need is knowing what kind of steel is made of.
The file in question is a BLUDAN from Austria and inside the stamped trademark there's a number 3, I went to the company site and I think I found it in this pic:
amuwxl.jpg


rlevkx.jpg
this is a pic of my actual file

Do you know what kind of steel it's made of? So that I will be able to proper temper it.
 
Also I tried to cut it with a grinding wheel and a mill cutter but no luck, how do you guys cut such a slab of steel?
 
Hi,

First Welcome. Second....Ditch that file. Working with unknown metal for knives is like trying to make a soufle' with cans with no labels. Start with known ingredients and the correct ones at that. At the top of the forum is a "Stickies" section that will give you a lot of homework to guide you in your knifemaking.

You will enjoy knifemaking much more without the frustration of working with the unknown.
 
I know, but I approached it as a training, it would be a shame to waste expensive materials because of my inexperience.
 
I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V22

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V22 Dec 1, 2011.

Countavatar.jpg
 
I am not sure about this specific brand because I use nicholsond files from home depot. The nicholson file is made of W2. That is heat treated at 1550 F. Afterwards you put it in the oven twice for an hour each at 375 F. That should just about do it. Make sure you anneal the file before you work with it. Files make mean knives but you have to make sure the temperatures are right or you will waste your time.
 
Last edited:
Annealing will make it easier to work on the file, right? how is it done?
should be the edge refined after the heat treatment? What about the quenching, should it be done in water or mineral oil?
 
bush-haus said:
I am not sure about this specific brand because I use nicholsondiles from home depot. The nicholson file is made of W2. That is heat treated at 1550 F. Afterwards you put it in the oven twice for an hour each at 375 F. That should just about do it. Make sure you anneal the file before you work with it. Files make mean knives but you have to make sure the temperatures are right or you will waste your time.
Click to expand...

Not being a jerk but how did you verify the files as W2? In fact I am sure many on here would like to see the information that states it as such.
Dan
 
Userro said:
I know, but I approached it as a training, it would be a shame to waste expensive materials because of my inexperience.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's been said many times (and will doubtless be said many more), you'll waste more money working on that file than you would getting a cheap piece of annealed known steel. Steel is not expensive... the tools and supplies you need to turn that file into a real knife are more expensive than the steel. Why waste money? Learn the easy and less expensive way.
 
Userro said:
Annealing will make it easier to work on the file, right? how is it done?
should be the edge refined after the heat treatment? What about the quenching, should it be done in water or mineral oil?
Click to expand...

The links posted for you will give you hours of study so you can make an educated decision on how you wish to proceed.
 
I'll sure read every link posted, I was just eager to getting my hand dirty to learn something
btw I'm gonna look for a piece of 5160, don't really know where but I'll see
 
Last edited:
DanCo said:
Not being a jerk but how did you verify the files as W2? In fact I am sure many on here would like to see the information that states it as such.
Dan
Click to expand...

I called the manufacturing plant and was told by head of Quality that I am to heat treat as if it were W2. I have nothing in writing as their materials are proprietary, but when I am told by a manager at the manufactuing plant to treat is if it were W2, I will treat like W2.

Oh, and to anneal is done easily by having a hot bed of coals in your bar-b-q pit, and placing the file on the bed of coals. The put more wood on the fire. Let that burn all the way down. I didn't get the file out until next morning when it completely cooled. This worked perfectly for me.
__________________
Beckerhead #32
___________
 
If you use "expensive materials" won't you take your time and make sure everything goes the way you want? If you use cheap materials, you tend to go "oh well, it was free/cheap" and you get more... it adds up. Use the cheap materials later to refine the techniques you need work on. Strike that, don't use the cheap materials, get slower hehe.
 
Userro:
I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone saying that you should get some known steel to start out with, yet it seems that once someone gets the idea of making a knife from a file they cling to it in spite of overwhelming advice to the contrary.

I've never annealed a file but the typical process is not complicated. There are specific temperatures for specific steels, but since we're only guessing what the file is made of I think it would be safe to heat it to a low red and let it cool off slowly perhaps by sticking it into vermiculite or perlite. You might try putting it on a large burner of your stove (I have a glass top electric) and set it to high. Or place it in a large outdoor fire and pull it out the next day after it has cooled down (slowly).

Hardening it is guess work. If I were trying it I would follow the specifications for W2, or 1095, or some other alleged steel it might be made of. The same advice would be for the tempering.

Have fun with it. It just seems like a LOT more work, and it complicates the learning process if you are just starting out in knife making.

I think we need a sticky telling how someone can make a knife from a file as a beginner and just refer them to that site.

- Paul Meske
 
I found out that 5160 steel is pretty hard to find, can someone recommend another, more common, type of steel that could replace 5160 in that walkthrought?
 
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Don't they have springs in Italy? ( Just joking)
Look up a spring shop or a metal work or machinist shop. Go by and tell them yo are going to make a knife and want a piece of steel. 5160 and 9260 are used to make springs.
1095 is also used at spring shops.
O-1 and 1095 are commonly used in machine shops.

The list of the steels you can work on easily without much equipment is short = a steel between 1060 and 1085; 5160 or9260; O-1; 1095 or W-1 or W-2.

Other places to get steel are:
Catalog knifemaking suppliers
Industrial suppliers ( In the USA McMaster-Carr and Fastenal are two that are used)

This list came up from a search. Don't know about the places, but it would be good to check them out.

Specialist knifemaking suppliers
UK & EUROPE
http://www.attacc.com/index.html
http://thegoodstuffshop.dk/
https://www.brisa.fi/portal/index.ph...tpage&Itemid=1
http://www.dick.biz/
http://nordellknives.com/indexx.shtml
http://www.messermanufaktur.de/
http://www.weberknives.com/
http://www.wolf-borger-messer.de/ (no English)
http://www.couteaucustom.com/
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Ringwood-Pr...-Policies.html


And of course....good old ebay usually has steel.

Don't know if this book will help, but it has to do with Milan Italy knife shows and suppliers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KNIFEMAKING...07-/220773678835?pt=Libri&hash=item336722fef3

This ebay seller in Italy seems to carry some knife stuff:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pomo-Helle-...t=Militaria_Collezionismo&hash=item230e206915

Svandinavia has several knife suppliers.


Also, give Emre ( galadduin) a shout and see who he recomends in Europe.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=137849
 
From what I have been able to find, MA5M is equivalent to 420c. If it is a stainless steel, you will have a hard time with HT and would have to send it out. Being 420, though, it should be fairly easy to work as long as you keep an eye on tempurature.
 
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