Filing vs. Grinding

B

BChou-E29

Joined
Dec 4, 2009
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503
Newbie question here... But is there any difference between a knife whose bevels have been filed in and a knife that has been ground with a belt grinder?
 
We newbies receive a lot of encouragement to start with files and sandpaper. I viewed this advice as some sort of joke being played upon us by the old timers. I then attempted to make my first blade with a belt grinder- with bad results. I learned that I can quickly turn a perfectly good blank of steel into an unusable chunk of metal. I started over on a new blade blank with files and sandpaper, and I can see it slowly coming around. Working it manually is giving me a much better understanding of the mechanics of stock removal.

Welcome to Bladeforums.
 
There's little difference between the two methods. The ground bevels take some skill and practice, but I see no need to begin with files . . . if a belt grinder is available. You've got to obtain the skill on a belt grinder someday, unless you plan to always remove metal with a file.

Mike L.
 
logem said:
There's little difference between the two methods. The ground bevels take some skill and practice, but I see no need to begin with files . . . if a belt grinder is available. You've got to obtain the skill on a belt grinder someday, unless you plan to always remove metal with a file.

Mike L.
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That's what I was going to say. When the electricity goes out and doesn't come back on, then I will leave my blades forge finished and use stones to knock the decarb off the edge, sharpen and call it done.
 
69_knives said:
That's what I was going to say. When the electricity goes out and doesn't come back on, then I will leave my blades forge finished and use stones to knock the decarb off the edge, sharpen and call it done.
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you know that gives me an idea. just for fun we should do a little blade forums competition. we should forge a knife and get it as nice as we can with just the hammer and then finish it up by hand and post pictures. kinda go back to basics.
 
The answer is yes and no. For a flat "ground" blade there may be no difference. However, you can only go so thin before HT, and you can't file after HT (though you can still sand, but that takes a lot of time), so thin blades usually see some grinding after HT that won't be practical without a grinder of some sort.

Hollow grinds are pretty much always ground in.

Tai Goo doesn't usually use any kind of grinder or much powered tools any more (he used to), but it takes a lot of forging skills to make good knives that way.

I mill a lot and often only use a grinder for finishing.
 
JTknives said:
you know that gives me an idea. just for fun we should do a little blade forums competition. we should forge a knife and get it as nice as we can with just the hammer and then finish it up by hand and post pictures. kinda go back to basics.
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I would be up for that, when it warms up enough to forge. :)
 
BChou-E29 said:
Newbie question here... But is there any difference between a knife whose bevels have been filed in and a knife that has been ground with a belt grinder?
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The answer to that is yes and the difference is it's a heck of a lot more work with files:p. I started with files and made many knives with them before i got around to getting a grinder. Sometimes i still make a knife with files.:D

Bob
 
I got rid of my Burr King and other power tools because I felt the tooling was limiting me.

10 minutes with a hammer is 2 hours with a file.... remember these words.

Kinda curious, so you will always have to aim towards using a grinder???? Hmmmm I guess someone had better tell Don Fogg, Wolfgang Loerchner, Dale Baxter, Tai Goo and some others. For some of us moving back to hand tools IS moving forward.

I used to call my grinder my "variable speed, variable grit electric file."

The trade off between grinders and file is cash versus buckets of sweat.
 
All very good points. d dub I know what you mean; the same thing happened to my first attempt at a knife. I've been filing for a good hour or two and I think I've got my blade ground and ready for HT. But now there's a new problem. I finished the filing with a bastard mill file and now there are a bunch of rough file marks on the metal. Sand paper has done some good but there are still more marks. Any ideas as how to remove them?
 
BChou-E29 said:
All very good points. d dub I know what you mean; the same thing happened to my first attempt at a knife. I've been filing for a good hour or two and I think I've got my blade ground and ready for HT. But now there's a new problem. I finished the filing with a bastard mill file and now there are a bunch of rough file marks on the metal. Sand paper has done some good but there are still more marks. Any ideas as how to remove them?
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more sandpaper, progressively finer grit, more elbow grease

-Page
 
Keep the file cleaned off with a brass or copper brush and keep it loaded with chalk or soapstone (I use cheapo metal marking soapstone) this prevents the file from loading up and from the "cold welding" that can happen during filing. You can get a smoother finish from the same file by easing up on the pressure and ensuring that the flats of the file are hitting the blade and not the edge/corner of the file.

Prior to HT I'd make sure my blade is at 120-220, wrap some sandpaper around the file. I take my blades to 320x prior to HT but I use ATP-641 to prevent scaling.

There will always be scratches that need to be taken out of a blade while hand sanding. The more and the better work you do at early stages will greatly reduce the amount of work after hardening. Good lighting and magification are your friends while hand sanding.

Edited to add:

To piggy back on what Page said..... Hand rubbed blades will highlight your craftsmanship, patience and attention to detail. Hand rubbed blades will highlight lack of patience and attention to detail. You will rub, rub, rub and rub at the lower grits, if you've done it right it gets a bit easier at the higher grits.
 
BChou-E29 said:
Right. Patience and perseverance. Those seem to be recurring themes...
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Forgot to include humility but working blades with a file and sandpaper should bring this.....

I repeat this to death.... but I approach knifemaking as an old world craft. For most people it takes time to learn the basics and a lot longer to master the basics. I can't wait until I learn the basics.

If it was easy everyone would make knives. :D Keep at it, it's really delightful when the finish "pops" at you.
 
Will Leavitt said:
Forgot to include humility but working blades with a file and sandpaper should bring this.....

I repeat this to death.... but I approach knifemaking as an old world craft. For most people it takes time to learn the basics and a lot longer to master the basics. I can't wait until I learn the basics.

If it was easy everyone would make knives. :D Keep at it, it's really delightful when the finish "pops" at you.
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Will do. Thanks!
 
Speaking as a guy who just filed his very first blade over the weekend, I will say this. Don't overwork yourself.
I'm sore in places I didn't even know I had. I had to take today off to rest my arms and back.
But once you see the plunge appear and the bevel take shape... well it's a pretty damn good feeling I gotta say!

Good luck and keep plugging along.
 
My first few knives were made with files.

Most people work harder at filing than they need to. Files cut on the forward stroke. You need just enough downward pressure to make sure that the teeth grab the steel and not just skate across the surface. Pushing down as hard as you can while filing doesn't make the cutting go any faster--the teeth on a file will only cut so deep. I've seen a lot of guys put a lot of muscle into the filing, and they just didn't need to.

And if you are just starting out and using files to grind your knife bevels--do yourself a favor and use thinner stock. Steel that is 1/8 or 3/32 inch thick is fine for a small 3-4 inch blade. If you are thinking that the first knife you are going to make is a 1/4 inch thick, 12 inch bowie, you are going to be working at it for a while and will likely become discouraged before it gets finished.
 
I completely agree with NStricker. Start small so you can see the fruits of your labor sooner and you will be more apt to stick with it to completion.

SS
 
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