• The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
    Price is $300 $250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
    Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.

  • Today marks the 24th anniversary of 9/11. I pray that this nation does not forget the loss of lives from this horrible event. Yesterday conservative commentator Charlie Kirk was murdered, and I worry about what is to come. Please love one another and your family in these trying times - Spark

Fillet knife

A

arnold73

Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
10
Hi !

Could someone tell me if Stainless steel 440C can be used to make a good fillet knife ? I've seen knife makers use these steel to make their fillet knives claiming the great quality of this material as the reason of their choice. For those who have used it, what about its flexibility ?

I'm asking this question because I've always used a fillet knife made of SS SANDVIK 12C27 and I know some of the fillet knives available in the market are made of SS 440C but I never had the opportunity to try one.

Would you mind sharing your experience with me ?

Thanks for replying.

Arnold.
 
Flexibility is dependant on thinness not anything else.Some people prefer a filleting knife to be flexible ,some prefer a stiff blade.A higher carbon steel will have better edge retention. I still like my old Rapalas, I don't know what stainless they're made of.
 
Flexibility as in the ability to bend and not set is dependent on the properties of the steel as well as the thickness as different steels have higher yield points, it can vary a lot depending on composition and heat treatement.

Edge retention is also significantly more complex than just carbon content. It also depends on what type you are looking for, check out Roman Landes work where he notes 440A has better edge retention than 440C for example.

-Cliff
 
It all depends on how the heat treat is done. I think a lot of the problems associated with 440C is because they have not been cryoed as part of their heat treat. Some of the nicer 440C filets I have seen are done by Bill Kennedy of Yukon, Oklahoma. Mike
 
On the party boat we used dexter russell boning knives. they were #1375, 1376, 1377, and 1378 with 5, 6, 7, and 8 inch blades respectively. All the commercial fishing boats here use the 1375s, locally they are called rippers, and are used, for the most part, ripping, or gutting, fish. They have enough flex to cut flounder, and are stiff enough to cut through larger fish like haddock and cod. the high carbon steel blades rust easily but take a very very sharp edge, and hold it when cutting fish for a long time.


pete
 
argel55 said:
It all depends on how the heat treat is done. I think a lot of the problems associated with 440C is because they have not been cryoed as part of their heat treat. Some of the nicer 440C filets I have seen are done by Bill Kennedy of Yukon, Oklahoma. Mike
Click to expand...
Is there any reason why this SS 440C is most of the time not cryoed ?
You said a lot of problems...which other problems can this lack of cryogenic stage can cause ? and what makes you beleive that the steel ductility is affected by this ?

Thanks for replying.
 
Steels are often not cryogenically heat treated because it costs more. The benefits of cryogenics include promotion of martensite formation and increased hardness, and carbide precipitation and increase wear resistance, the extent of the latter has seen somewhat conflicting reports often argued to be from how the cooling was performed. There is in general little materials data to support extra toughess though some knifemakers who use deep cryogenics are known for very tough blades such as Swamp Rat's performance with D2.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Steels are often not cryogenically heat treated because it costs more. The benefits of cryogenics include promotion of martensite formation and increased hardness, and carbide precipitation and increase wear resistance, the extent of the latter has seen somewhat conflicting reports often argued to be from how the cooling was performed. There is in general little materials data to support extra toughess though some knifemakers who use deep cryogenics are known for very tough blades such as Swamp Rat's performance with D2.

-Cliff
Click to expand...
Have you ever used a fillet Knife SS 440C or do you someone who has used it ? If yes, what is this blade appreciated for filleting ?

Thanks for replying.
 
I have used various fillet knives, not in 440C, there is no reason you could not make a quality fillet knife from that steel.

-Cliff
 
If good ductility is part of the quality of a good knife, some pretend that a blade made of 440C are very stiff and do not have much spring...
What do you thing about this, knowing that this steel has a very high carbon and chromium content ?

Arnold.
 
Ductility generally refers to the ability to take a set (meaning it won't return to straight once the force is removed) and keep bending without cracking, you generally are not interested in that for the blade as a whole. The ability to flex and return to true is low in general for that type of steel, but in really thin fillet blades this is rarely an issue because they feel little stress even when flexed to large angles. You generally only see differences in steels in that regard when the blades are really thick.

-Cliff
 
Arnold73. I make a lot of fillet knives with 154CM, which is pretty close to 440C. As noted earlier the flexibility is more a function of the grind rather than the hardness. Some of my earlier knives were 440C and I still have one I use once in a while. A subzero on both of these steels gives you the insurance that the conversion to martensite is as complete as you can get it. I do it for quality control more than anything. You can get the same result with multiple tempers according to some metalurgists I have talked to. 440C tends to get a little chippy at the edge at hardness over about 57/58, especially with a thin blade. I think edge holding and performance is similair to 12C27. In fact I wish I could get that steel or AEBL in sizes I could make fillet knives and kitchen knives with. If anyone knows a source I would appreciate knowing about it. 154 CM is a better choice than 440C I think, you can use it higher hardness like 60 or so and the toughness is still adequate for a thin slicer like a fillet knife. Hope this helps some,

Phil
 
Arnold, To be more specific to answer your question. Yes 440C would make a good fillet knife. Specifiy the hardness at 58 and grind a distal taper so there is more flex in the tip back to about the center of the blade. Start with .100 stock and Grind the edge down to about .010. A 8 or 9 inch blade with a "medium flex" is ideal for everything down to small pan fish. 440C has great corrosion resistance in salt water. It also is available through many sources in sizes that are just right for fillet knives. As I said there are other steels that will work great too. 154CM, CPMS30V, and the new CPM154 might be ideal. If you want more info slip me an e mail.. Phil
 
Cliff, I have talked with Devin. The stock he uses is very thin. It comes in rolls. I am looking for 0.10 or even 0.125 up to .180. Phil
 
Phil Wilson said:
Arnold, To be more specific to answer your question. Yes 440C would make a good fillet knife. Specifiy the hardness at 58 and grind a distal taper so there is more flex in the tip back to about the center of the blade. Start with .100 stock and Grind the edge down to about .010. A 8 or 9 inch blade with a "medium flex" is ideal for everything down to small pan fish. 440C has great corrosion resistance in salt water. It also is available through many sources in sizes that are just right for fillet knives. As I said there are other steels that will work great too. 154CM, CPMS30V, and the new CPM154 might be ideal. If you want more info slip me an e mail.. Phil
Click to expand...

Hi Phil,

I've been using a European fillet knife which has .063 thickness and ground till the edge in an V shape. Is this what you call a distal taper ? Is this thickness good for making a 6,5" & 8 3/4 fillet knife ?

Is cryognic treatment part of the whole process of thermal treatment for your blades ?

440C is more available in my area than the one you suggest...I'll probably start with it.

Thanks for replying.
 
Distal taper means that the thickness of the blade just in front of the handle is tapered to a very thin tip. If you sight down the blade to the tip you can see an even decreasing thickness. It would be hard to make a distal taper blade with .063 stock . There is just not enough thickness to work with. I always cryo my blades, it is more important for some steels than others. You will get some benefit with 440C but if you do at least 3 tempers you can almost accomplish the same thing. Do a search on this forum on Cryo treatment and you will find a lot of information. 440C will make a good fillet blade and is easier to work with than some of the steels I mentioned. Phil

PHil
 
Phil,

The European blade with .063 thickness I have here has a distal taper.
It's a X50 CrMo14 From Sanelli (Italy). It probably a huge job grinding this steel so as to get a so thin edge.

Do you thing that a blade 440C treated using vacuum quench still need cryo to be just like the one you make ?

Arnold.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top