Finally back to blade smithing, and need help finishing/starting a project

Peter_E_Ryt

Peter_E_Ryt

Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Messages
1,179
Hey guys- some of yall might remember me- I've been in and out of trying to get blade smithing for all of about 2 years now. Just before summer I had life get in the way, but I'm finally ready to get back into it. The only problem is that I ran into something which was giving me problems a while back. I think it's called a fish lip or something like that. Last time I asked, I was told to try and hammer it out or cut/sand it off. I lack the proper equipment to cut or sand, so I was wondering how those of you who forge it all the way pull it off.

Picture of what I'm talking about:
Help.jpg
 
That can be avoided by using glancing hammer blows towards the back of the knife with the knife spine down. It's more an upsetting type blow to keep the steel moving back and not rolling forward. It also keeps the tip from getting too thin since you are bulking it up at the same time.

I am sure there are other techniques also, be sure to try them all.

It is much easier to demonstrate then to describe.
 
Yep Peter,them's fish lips!
To avoid them do as Finnigan said. Start the bar of steel by heating the tip only. Take a medium size hammer,2-3Lb.,and strike the blows at a 45 degree angle "BACKWARD" toward the handle .Do this on both corners,with flattening blows on the sides, at the end of each heat.As the bar becomes pointed avoid the tendency to start hammering downward on the spine and edge.This is what causes the roll-over and fish lips in your photo.Once the tip is a thick point you heat the whole bar,strike the reverse curve,and start drawing the bevels and tapers. The blade will straighten up and the thick tip will thin down as you go.
Hope this helps.
Stacy

To take the quick and easy route,saw the bar at a 45 degree angle before you start forging.The back forging is better,but cutting works,too.
 
Thankyall for the great answeres! Do you figure that the blade is salvagable in that condition?

Edit- I'm gonna try and hot cut or borrow my friend's bandsaw to get this pieces back into working condition.

Edit^2- Upon further testing- it's taking an infinitly long time- I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong... I'm going to try and find someone in the Austin area that I can watch.
 
If you are forging it is almost always salvagable, that is one of the great advantages to pushing the steel around vs. grinding it off.

I knew someone could describe the process better then me!:D

The hammering process requires that you are hammering more against your arm pressure that is holding the blade then the anvil it'self. It will be very slow so you need patience.

Some people pre-form and others grind it off, at first I did both but eventually I kept practicing and figured it out.
 
Hi, Peyton! It's good to see you getting a chance to pound hot metal again. Welcome back! :)

Whilst learning the proper forging techniques, you can correct a lot of the "finesse errors" if you can afford a cheapo angle grinder. If you can't afford it, you let me know. My email addy will be available through my profile.
 
Kevin Cashen showed me a solution to this problem that really works well. It's one of those "Doh, why didn't I think of that!" solutions. I could try to explain it, but Kevin has pictures of it on his site, cashenblades.com
 
WTFZOMG!!! Fitz!!!! Good to here from you! My old computer died, and I'm still trying to free space up on my mac- I should be on paltalk eventually. I think that I should be able to come up with the money for an angle grinder.

Chris- thanks for the link.

B Finnigan- yeah, I discovered rather quickly that you're putting the pressure against the arms/tongs.

Once again- thankyall!
 
Ummmmm.....how about rounding off the corners of the bar on the grinder?:D That is what Bill Moran did and if he did it, then it's got to be legal under the ABS "forged to shape" rule:thumbup: Cutting the clip is the big no-no. I saw Dan Winkler round the end of a bar at the fall hammer-in last year and he ground the tip REAL round. More like a slightly losided oval shape. Hard to saw where the grey area ends other than saying don't grind it to a point....lol Knocking the corners off about 1/8 to 3/16 works great for me.
 
Yeah- I think I should pick myself up a little angle grinder until I get my hands on a good sander. Eventually, I hope to be able to exculde knocking off the corners, but as of now, it seems the most practical.
 
Unless you consider it some kind of matter of personal honor, why not just always knock off the corners? :p I don't have to do it anymore to avoid fish mouth syndrome, but it seems to get the point moving a bit more quickly, escpecially with 5/16 or 3/8 stock. If you ever get a chance to see Dan Winkler forge a knife, check out he much he grinds off.
 
B Finnigan said:
If you are forging it is almost always salvagable, that is one of the great advantages to pushing the steel around vs. grinding it off.

I knew someone could describe the process better then me!:D

The hammering process requires that you are hammering more against your arm pressure that is holding the blade then the anvil it'self. It will be very slow so you need patience.

Some people pre-form and others grind it off, at first I did both but eventually I kept practicing and figured it out.
Click to expand...
Here, here.....There have been a couple of occasions when i was foging a rather pointy bowie type knife where the point got too thin and kinda folded. So I just heat it up agian and hot cut the 1/4-1/3 of twisted tip off and forge a new point.
As for the angle grinder, great way to save your triceps and a bit of your sanity. Ed Caffrey still uses a cheapo angle grinder to grind the forging scale off of the blade before taking it the belt grinder.
 
There are a few instances like with damascus or wrought that you don't want the grain/pattern to abruptly end but to curve. If you grind on those materials it has a way of telling everyone.

Anyone that want's to learn to forge as much as possible will get there if they keep at it. IMHO if you occasionally do a grind here or there it is not going to handicap you on your journey. Sometimes you just need to finish a knife to get the boost you need to tackle the next one. Keep it fun!
 
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