Finally got some balsa wood. Now I just need to add the compound.

S

Squashfan

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Jun 6, 2012
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Actually, I have some pine I was using as a back for my copy paper strops so I think I will glue the balsa to the pine. I read through Allen R's "$5 Stropping Experiment thread" and I think I am going to mix the compound with some mineral oil to make a paste. Not that I know what I am doing as a paste maker but, hey, the fun is in the experiment. Oh, and I need to cut the balsa to length as well. This is going to be fun!!!

EDIT: Do I need to treat the wood with boiled linseed oil? I know need to inspect and (maybe) sand the wood.
Also checked the pine. It is about a half of an inch skinnier than the balsa. Gonna have to find a wider piece of wood.
 
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My 2 cents - use only as much oil as you need to break it down a bit. Too much oil will allow the abrasive to slide around on the surface and that's not good. The balsa will soak up some of it as you go, but a blotting isn't a bad idea if you start out with too much.
 
Interesting that you mentioned boiled linseed oil. In the last couple of weeks, I've 'experimented' with some green powdered compound mixed into Danish Oil (B.L.O. and varnish blend), painted onto a simple Home Depot paint stir stick. Danish Oil takes a day or three to fully cure & harden, so I let it sit a while before trying it out. It's kind of smelly too, so make sure you leave the project in a well-ventilated area ( ;) ). As the 'experiment' goes, I'll just say it 'needs more research'. Not sure yet, if it adds anything to the performance of the compound; but it does a great job minimizing how much compound comes off in the stropping process. Very durable in that regard. I may also try this with some other compounds as well (I have some 600-grit SiC powder).

In the meantime, if your compound mixes well with mineral oil, I'd just use that. It's convenient to mix some in a small disposable dish/container, and 'paint' it onto your balsa with a small paint brush. I've done this as well, and it's worked out great.

For simple stropping, Martin's (HeavyHanded's) recommendation to keep the oil relatively light is good. If you want to 'experiment' a little more, I've noticed that a pretty heavy mud of either of the compounds I used (green/SiC) works GREAT for polishing blades as a whole, when used on balsa. I discovered that by accident, in stropping my Opinels on it (both 'carbone' and INOX models). Left a muddy, oily mess on my blades; but when I wiped it off, I found that it had quickly polished away a lot of the sharpening/honing scratches left from long ago.


David
 
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Using a mud or slurry with oil, one can see exactly where the edge is making contact by studying where/how the residue is being deposited on the bevel or curve if a convex or Scandi. If its really clean on the apex, but a bit of build-up is visible on the shoulder, you're too high. if the apex is muddy and the shoulder is clean you're too low, if the last bit going into the apex is uniformly hazy, you're just right. As per above, once you wipe off the mud, it leaves a real nice finish.

As for alternative binders, the list is long. Stearin seems to be the industry standard, and it can be soft or hard with very small amounts of additives. Took me a lot of batches to come up with my WB compound and have it work better on paper with comparatively higher pressure than the pre-made commercial options - ultimately did not go with stearin or other tallow related materials. There is a devil in the details when it comes to compounds. Many will work OK for a given task, but to get the better results from the same abrasives takes some tinkering.


Personally, I like Andy's advice! :D
 
awestib said:
I don't think you need/should treat the balsa in any way before using it, at least I have never read that info anywhere!
But Squashfan - why not using this http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1122335-Washboard-kits-in-stock instead ?! No maintenance necessary ever, as light, better feedback, still using your copy paper! Check it out!!!
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Ultimately, my goal is to get an edge hair whittling sharp to prove to a (semi-knifenut) friend of mine that it can be done. He is the one who first set me on the road of knifedom. I want to prove to him and myself (mainly myself though) that I can turn out a hair whittling edge. I don't need it but I really, really want to do one. It might not be my EDC but one knife in my collection. So I am pursuing the path that, I believe, will lead to it.

I will process the rest of the great replies latter.
 
I've gotten to hair whittling using the basic set-up, and again using the WB with some Formax chromium oxide (green). While I pitch it as being more for a fine user's edge (generally finish tree-topping) it can be customized for a higher polish as well. Always good to experiment anyway. I would think for a hair whittling edge you might be better off with a leather strop or use a couple sheets of paper wrapped around your stone or a piece of glass etc. The balsa is going to get the abrasive to bite a bit deeper on the steel - good for a microtoothy edge but maybe more texture than you're looking for. What is your current finishing stone?
 
HeavyHanded said:
I've gotten to hair whittling using the basic set-up, and again using the WB with some Formax chromium oxide (green). While I pitch it as being more for a fine user's edge (generally finish tree-topping) it can be customized for a higher polish as well. Always good to experiment anyway. I would think for a hair whittling edge you might be better off with a leather strop or use a couple sheets of paper wrapped around your stone or a piece of glass etc. The balsa is going to get the abrasive to bite a bit deeper on the steel - good for a microtoothy edge but maybe more texture than you're looking for. What is your current finishing stone?
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My question: What stone did you sharpen the blade on before you used the green compound?
Hmmm, I seem to remember a thread where Bluntcut and (I think it was) you were talking about how different strops produce different edges. I think he was actually trying your method of paper around stone out but I am not for sure. Anyway, he had trouble getting a super sharp edge and had to go back the balanced strop. Saying all this to say, I came away with the impression the paper over stone doesn't yield a hair whittling edge.
It seems I was incorrect; my apologies.

IMO, steel selection is almost as important as stone selection. For this I would use 14C or 13C28N. So naturally I would start on the porus two sided benchstone I have mentioned before. Once I have finished with the fine side, I could move on to either a Lansky sharpmaker (medium and fine ceramic) or medium, fine and ultra fine of Spyderco benchstones. They are the stones that come in the colored plastic boxes. Then I guess black, green, and gold compound on paper. Though I will stone stropping when I hit hair whittling.

I have brushed treetopping free hand but I couldn't quite get there.
 
Hair-whittling, tree-topping and shaving all get a lot easier at edge angles below 30° inclusive, and more so when you go below 25° inclusive. Simpler steels like 1095 make it easier still, as the carbide-free grain should be about as fine as it's going to get (assuming good heat treat & quench, as always). More alloyed steels may start to introduce some bulky carbides, which will generally be larger and therefore take a little more work to thin & shape them on an otherwise fine edge.

If the goal currently is just to prove (to a friend) a hair-whittling edge is possible, I'd start with a known-good 1095 blade and shoot for an edge angle at or below 25° inclusive. Other steels and wider edge angles can do it too, but it'll be somewhat more challenging. It's much easier to see how edge geometry affects this, when not also introducing other variables like larger grain size and/or bulkier carbides.


David
 
Squashfan said:
My question: What stone did you sharpen the blade on before you used the green compound?
Hmmm, I seem to remember a thread where Bluntcut and (I think it was) you were talking about how different strops produce different edges. I think he was actually trying your method of paper around stone out but I am not for sure. Anyway, he had trouble getting a super sharp edge and had to go back the balanced strop. Saying all this to say, I came away with the impression the paper over stone doesn't yield a hair whittling edge.
It seems I was incorrect; my apologies.

IMO, steel selection is almost as important as stone selection. For this I would use 14C or 13C28N. So naturally I would start on the porus two sided benchstone I have mentioned before. Once I have finished with the fine side, I could move on to either a Lansky sharpmaker (medium and fine ceramic) or medium, fine and ultra fine of Spyderco benchstones. They are the stones that come in the colored plastic boxes. Then I guess black, green, and gold compound on paper. Though I will stone stropping when I hit hair whittling.

I have brushed treetopping free hand but I couldn't quite get there.
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If you follow the link in my sig and pan down there's a series of micrographs I took of the edge as I progressed from 320 to 600 to my homebrew compound, all done on a Washboard. Last pic is of the hair I whittled with that exact edge done at that time - knife was a CS Voyager in Aus8. I also pulled one off with a 1095 knife done in the same manner only finishing with green CrO instead of my more aggressive compound. The normal result is somewhere around tree-topping, whittling takes a bit more care. And as David mentions, an acute angle on carbon steel is a good combo.

Paper wrapped around a stone can get you there too, but is more temperamental in terms of how many sheets you use for a base, what stone its wrapped around etc, and you'd still want to hit it with a fine hone before stropping. I would think your combination stone followed by Spyderco medium, ultrafine, and strop with green or a better white compound on hard leather should get you there as well. Might want to finish with some stropping on plain leather or plain newspaper (several layers) over a stone as a final touch. I would try not to use more than the one grade of compound, very easy to round the edge when stropping through a progression, and coming off the UF will be very close to your goal.

Good luck, its a good learning experience
Martin
 
I crayoned right onto dry balsa. Then when the black builds up, I spray WD-40 on a cloth and wipe it off. I let it dry for a few minutes and crayon on a little more in a rather relaxed zig zag pattern. That's all there is to it. I prefer not to strop when a compound slurry comes up on the blade.
 
Leather! My old nemesis raises it's head again. Well, not really a nemesis but I have been searching for a way to whittle hair without using leather because I am scared to try making a leather strop. There is a thread somewhere on here on how to make a leather strop but I can't find it!!! Anyway, I have a couple of old leather belts but all of them a bumpy texture on the front. IIRC, I need to use the front and not the back of the belt. Then I need to glue it to a piece of wood. What glue would work? Could I use Elmer's glue?

On the topic of lower angles: I have several older carbon traditionals. Two or three Frontiers by Imperial, a couple of Bokers, an "Old Cutler" Barlow and a Bowen. Since I don't care for carbon steel, I can safely experiment with them.
I think I will start on one of the secondary blades one of the Frontiers. One problem I have run up against is how do you tell what your angle is when it is that low. Currently, I place the knife on the stone at a 90 degree angle and I halve 90 degrees twice to yield an angle approximately 22.5. Though I have been told that I go a touch lower. But if I halve the 22.5 degree angle I will come out with an 11.25 degree angle. That would work and I could actually find the angle again.

From this thread, the furthered practical goal is to get a tree sharp edge for my EDC at around a 40 degree inclusive. Man that sounds like an obtuse angle. But thanks for the good advice! I really like sharpening knives so I enjoy trying all the methods I can. That is what is fun to me. I could bang out a good enough EDC edge in about an hour but where is the fun in good enough? It took me about 40 minutes to make this reply, sheesh.
 
This is an older freehand block I made for getting better control when cutting a new angle. Lines scribed at 17, 15, 13, and 11 - find the bevel if it already exists and just eyeball to the closest line. If grinding a new bevel, eyeball it to start and check often. I don't use it anymore, but it came in very handy for a while.

0612021226.jpg


And for the leather prep:

Step by step:
1. Wet the leather. No need to soak it for any length of time. Running it under the tap for a second or two, front and back, is enough.
2. VERY IMPORTANT - let the leather dry for a while. Before you wet it it was a light tan color. Water darkened it a lot. Let it dry until it's about half-way back to its original color. At THAT point it will be almost as squishy as modeling clay.
3. Use a large diameter rolling pin, the heavier the better. Marble pastry pins are great for this, but even a piece of 3-4" PCV pipe will work. Now start rolling on the smooth side of the leather. Roll from end to end evenly, bearing down on the roller. Do this for 4-5 minutes, not just one minute. This will firm up the leather. If you are going to use this for a bare leather strop, roll it for 10-15 minutes. The rolling will force more silicates to migrate to the top of the leather.
4. Let it dry naturally, then glue to a backing or use as a hanging strop.

Keep in mind that any natural oil... ANY oil... is going to soften the leather. Makes no difference if it's Lexol or Olive oil. Lexol is more compatible with leather. Olive oil won't hurt it. But both will soften the leather... Soooo... if you really want a good firm strop, but need to put some sort of strop conditioner on it, dab it on a finger tip and rub it out well. Don't paint it on with a brush, or rub it on with a saturated cloth, or pour it on and rub away the excess. None of the above will harm the leather, but they will significantly soften the leather more than is needed to preserve it. The strop conditioner I use on my grandfathers old hanging strop has the consistency of thicker Vaseline, and I use less than a pea-size for the entire strop once a year. My grandfather used it every day as did my dad. I'm guessing that this stop is about 75 years old... and the leather looks brand new.


Stitchawl
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Heavyhanded, thanks for the tutorial repost. Props to Stitchawl for the tutorial.

Dumb questions warning!: How does you angle block work? I just can't seem to picture where the knife goes. I think the knife would have to go toward the center. Do you stick the tip in the block? And what did you use to measure the angles scribed on the block?
 
Squashfan said:
Heavyhanded, thanks for the tutorial repost. Props to Stitchawl for the tutorial.

Dumb questions warning!: How does you angle block work? I just can't seem to picture where the knife goes. I think the knife would have to go toward the center. Do you stick the tip in the block? And what did you use to measure the angles scribed on the block?
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Its way more simple than that (and less accurate!), you just line it up and sight down the spine to see which scribe mark is closest when the bevel is flat on the stone. I marked them out with a protractor and colored with a fine line Sharpie. I used it more for the initial stages of lowering a bevel angle - once the bevel is established I'd switch back to tactile feedback and only use it once or twice to verify I wasn't getting too far from the target angle.
 
Oh, hey that is simple. I thought maybe you laid the blade flat and looked along the bevel. My question is how do you tell what the bevel angle is now? Have you just sharpened so long that you can tell the angles by feel?
 
Squashfan said:
Oh, hey that is simple. I thought maybe you laid the blade flat and looked along the bevel. My question is how do you tell what the bevel angle is now? Have you just sharpened so long that you can tell the angles by feel?
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That's pretty much it, I have low and lower. My "low" is about 30 inclusive, and my lower, which is my standard angle, is about 26 inclusive.
 
Crud, my inclusive is 40. But I cut a lot of tough stuff when I use my knife. I will some times go a week or two with very little use and then have to cut a ton of stuff in one day. Have you found any steels that require a higher angle? By the way, I happen to really like D2 and am wondering what angle you recommend for it.

Off topic: I am glad the mods don't make me stay on topic in Maint. 'Cause if they did, I would get dinged every time. And I love going off topic! I learn all kinds of really neat stuff that I would think to ask about.
 
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Squashfan said:
Crud, my inclusive is 40. But I cut a lot of tough stuff when I use my knife. I will some times go a week or two with very little use and then have to cut a ton of stuff in one day. Have you found any steels that require a higher angle? By the way, I happen to really like D2 and am wondering what angle you recommend for it.

Off topic: I am glad the mods don't make me stay on topic in Maint. 'Cause if they did, I would get dinged every time. And I love going off topic! I learn all kinds of really neat stuff that I would think to ask about.
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I'll be honest, I have found no need to go beyond 30 inclusive for any cutting tool with the exception of a mattock or other digging tool. Even my hatchets and axes are no more broad than 30, and they are employed on American beech and other seasoned hardwoods while camping. At the apex they might have a few additional degrees from stropping, but no more than a degree or two/side, maybe 34 total at the outside, probably less.

Am not sure about D2, but our paper cutters use D2 and they last for a loong time. I can check one and get back to you. Without knowing that, I'd still not go more obtuse than 30.
 
Don't think I am losing interest because I am not posting frequently. I just don't have time to type up replies.
Ok, thanks for the help and I appreciate your honesty with me. It is my turn to be honest with you. When I first started sharpening, the angles I heard where 40 degrees inclusive so I just kind of stuck to it. I am curious why you settled on around 30 inclusive. Wouldn't that quite a bit trade edge holding for sharpness? Or does it cut longer because of the lower angle? I think I am going to start an thread asking what angles the sharpeners on here use, just out of curiosity.
 
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