Fine Oilstones: Missarka. Are they good?

P

Papilio

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Sep 6, 2019
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I have a question about oilstones. A fine India is a nice stone. But still rather coarse. What about finer oilstones?
Oilstones are harder than waterstones. They don't wear as quickly as some of these waterstones with a soft bond like King do. But fine grits are hard to find when it comes to manmade stones. The traditional finer stone after an India would be an Arkansas stone. But Arkansas stones they are slow cutters and struggle with hard steels. Spyderco or diamonds could be a good choice after fine India stone. But they are not oilstones.

I found this old thread where German Missarka stones are mentioned: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-common-sharpening-problem-buffesr.283041/#post-2392786.

Missarka stones are sintered Aluminum oxide stones, no bindig agent is used. They work with water or oil. Maybe you can even fill them with oil (Liquid paraffin, Vaseline) as Norton stones are.
Available as F500, F1000, F500 / F1.2000 combination stone and a F150 / F500 combination stone (coarse SiC + fine AlOx)
https://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.html
http://missarka.de/ I can not link the English page. Clicking the link always goes to the German page (top left for English).
They cost less than Spyderco stones or DMT.

Does anybody have more information about these stones? Especially about their hardness? Do they wear quickly or are they "stones for life"? I have read more than once that some (oil-)stones are used for decades.
 
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After the Fine India, I have liked using a medium Spyderco hone. It follows the India beautifully and CAN be used with oil, even if it's not designated for use as an oil stone. I generally use it for refining touches after the Fine India - this means I'm not doing any heavy grinding or extreme polishing with it. For that reason, it works well enough used dry. But if more work is done using the medium Spyderco, it does keep itself from loading up and cuts more consistently if used with some lubrication (I do use mineral oil for that, and it works very well).
 
I have not seen Spyderco and Fallkniven stones as oilstones. Sharpmaker guys on YouTube always use the rods dry. And Fallkniven says "use no oil or water". But ok, why don't lubricate them?
As Spyderco and Fallkniven are a different stones because they do not have a specific grit I thought maybe those Missarka stones would be nice.
 
Papilio said:
I have not seen Spyderco and Fallkniven stones as oilstones. Sharpmaker guys on YouTube always use the rods dry. And Fallkniven says "use no oil or water". But ok, why don't lubricate them?
As Spyderco and Fallkniven are a different stones because they do not have a specific grit I thought maybe those Missarka stones would be nice.
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With tools like the Sharpmaker, I think Spyderco has always intended to market them as a light touchup tool - they're otherwise too slow for any major work, as compared to bench stones or other sharpening options available to us. And used as a light-duty tool, they work well enough without any lubrication. But a lot of people have become reliant on using them for heavier sharpening jobs like reprofiling. Literally everybody who's ever attempted that on the SM has discovered how fast the rods will load up with swarf, if some means isn't taken to minimize that. One either has to do a LOT of frequent scrubbing with an eraser or similar method while they work, or use some lubrication to keep the swarf from sticking or embedding. That's where oil or water (if it doesn't evaporate too quickly) will make a difference. This is basically true with any stone or hone used for sharpening. The need for lubrication is proportional to the amount of steel being removed in the job.
 
Thank you very much, as always. Next time I will try my ceramic stones with lubrication. I am curious if it makes a difference.
By the way: Literally just now I found a video (Burrfection) where a Spyderco 302M is used with water. And this seems to be much better than used dry :)

I won't ruin a Fallkniven stone if I use it with water then? "Use no water" because of the diamond metal tile?
 
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Papilio said:
Thank you very much, as always. Next time I will try my ceramic stones with lubrication. I am curious if it makes a difference.
By the way: Literally just now I found a video (Burrfection) where a Spyderco 302M is used with water. And this seems to be much better than used dry :)

I won't ruin a Fallkniven stone if I use it with water then? "Use no water" because of the diamond metal tile?
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I'm thinking water won't be an issue with the Fallkniven hone, at all. I have a Fallkniven DC4. The only issue I had with it, might've been due to my cleaning it (the diamond side) with Windex regularly. Whatever adhesive they used, to attach & hold the diamond plate, lost it's grip and the diamond plate eventually came off. I attribute that to just a poor choice of adhesive on their part. I repaired it by using some acetone to clean up the residual dry glue, and then epoxied it back in place. It won't be coming apart again, anytime soon. ;)
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I'm thinking water won't be an issue with the Fallkniven hone, at all.
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Will try it.

Obsessed with Edges said:
I repaired it by using some acetone to clean up the residual dry glue, and then epoxied it back in place. It won't be coming apart again, anytime soon. ;)
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Good to know. Just in case.
I think to remember that Fallkniven changed the glue years ago. I have watched a video (seems that I do this way to often :rolleyes: ) where a guy took his DC4 apart. This older stone was glued. Because he had to scrap off all that residual glue. Nowadays I think they use double-sided adhesive tape.
 
I have the Missarka 150/500, the pink 1000 and the 500/1200 (FEPA ratings, so similar to 150/800 - 3000 - 800/4000 JIS). Especially the 150/500 small format stone (150 x 50mm) has been my go-to stone for smaller kitchen knives for the last 2 years. I use it with water for convenience but I see no reason it could not be used with oil.

The 150 side is somewhat friable and does not load up. It is made of SiC and is somewhat comparable to a Norton Crystolon medium. It is a good starting point to reset the edge on a well-used knife. The 500 side is much harder (less friable), made of AlOx, but does still release some grit. It can load up but not as quickly as the fine side of an India stone. Because it is relatively hard, it is ideal to set a microbevel.

It is this combination of a 150 quick and friable side and a 800 (JIS) harder side which is able to set a microbevel, that makes this my favorite stone for quick resharpenings of ordinary kitchen knives.

The AlOx Missarka stones are not really comparable to the Spyderco stones. They are somewhat porous (including the pink 1000) and they do shed some grit although slowly and under higher pressures. I find them very useful.
 
Very helpful information. Thank you.

The Missarka 150 / 500, is this the Missarka Green? The green / white one? As the 150 (green) side is friable, does it wear fast?

Both white (F500) and pink (F1000) shed grit...would you say they last a long time nonetheless?
I did a quick research: The white (F500) stone is rated as 1.200 JIS. From your experience it is more a 800 JIS scratch pattern?
 
The Missarka 150 / 500, is this the Missarka Green? The green / white one? As the 150 (green) side is friable, does it wear fast?
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schleifstein-300918.jpg

These are the ones. I would say the green side is comparable to a medium crystolon. It wears enough to not load up, but not as fast as the light, cheap Chinese stones.

Both white (F500) and pink (F1000) shed grit...would you say they last a long time nonetheless?
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Yes, they will last a very long time.

The white (F500) stone is rated as 1.200 JIS. From your experience it is more a 800 JIS scratch pattern?
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One seller says it compares to an 800 (fine-tools.com), the other to a 1.200. I guess it is not that straightforward to compare ratings in different grit systems (JIS, FEPA, ANSI).

As the F500 is a rather hard stone, I use it as a finishing stone for run-of-the-mill kitchen knives so I'm not concerned where it fits in a progression. If I want to finish at a 3.000 JIS level, I use the F150 side - a stone on the softer side like a King 1k - the pink F1.000.
 
P Papilio

You're welcome. I just came across this conversion table on the Zische (Missarka manufacturer) website: https://zische.de/en/grain-size-table/

It turns out that FEPA F500 indeed equals 1.200 JIS. The next row down (so only slightly finer) is the 800 ANSI. That may explain the varying ratings provided by different sellers.

If you ever buy a Missarka, please let me know what you think of them. There is curiously little information on them on the internet.
 
Taxy22 said:
P Papilio

You're welcome. I just came across this conversion table on the Zische (Missarka manufacturer) website: https://zische.de/en/grain-size-table/

It turns out that FEPA F500 indeed equals 1.200 JIS. The next row down (so only slightly finer) is the 800 ANSI. That may explain the varying ratings provided by different sellers.

If you ever buy a Missarka, please let me know what you think of them. There is curiously little information on them on the internet.
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I know that different stones produce different scratch patterns. But as a rule of the thumb for me F400 always equalled JIS 1.000. So F500 should be a little bit finer. The Zische chart is exactly what I had in mind about these stones.

I ordered the F500 as well as the F.1000 (Ultra) stone and I am very curious how they will work.
I could not decide whether to take the F500 or the F150 / F500 combination stone as I thought that the F150 will probably wear out much faster than the white side.
 
My impression after a first sharpening session is a positive one. With 5cm width they are smaller than Japanese stones or wide 3'' diamond plates. I like them anyway. They seem to be good follow up stones after my Norton India stones (coarse, fine). I like they edge they produce. They are not the fastest stones you can buy but they work. And I like they feedback. I use them with water. For me it is much better than Spyderco Ceramics. Especially when it comes to the Spyderco Fine which is so smooth and has the feel of a bathroom tile. The pink F1.000 stone leaves a super sharp edge, removes metal at a decent rate. I can feel if I am over- or underangled much better than sharpening on Spyderco Fine / UF. Although the bevel has a hazy finish and is not polished. The next stone in the progression would be the Spyderco UF, if a more polished bevel is wanted.
For me the UF stone is not necessary as the level of sharpness is more than enough (when it comes to kitchen knives).

The white F500 stone feels like a hard bond stone, too. It is less smooth and is a great maintenance stone when more than a light touch up is needed. When done regularly the F1.000 stone will be sufficient.

Edit: Using these stones with water they are easy to clean. A spray bottle helps to get rid of the metal particels. And a rubber eraser is helpful, too.
I like both stones. I would rate the white stone more in the JIS 1.200 zone. The pink F1.000 is rated as somewhere between 3.000 and 4.000 JIS. Is think 3.000+ is accurate. The level of sharpness is quite similar to a Hard Black Arkansas (but faster cutting) or a Spyderco Fine.
 
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Please allow me to share with you my experience of 8 years of testing/using the Zische (ARKando, MISSarka or raYmi) sharpening stones.
In order to say, Zische stones are the best sharpening stones as far as the steel removal is concern,
since 2011 I, owned/used/tested the following world famous stones:
Here I share with you the video of my history.
I am sorry the video it is in Spanish but subtitles will help.
The best sharpening stone for the knives | TdF history

Recommendations of use

Soaking
Soak the stone in water for 5 minutes if the stone was not used for a week. If used within the week stone will not dry completely hence the soaking time 3 min.
Before use with your finger wipe off the excess of water from the surface. The tactile feedback the stone would feel to perform coarser.


Permanent soak
I left the stone soaking for couple of hours and could not feel any change in performance.
BUT
I du not recommend left the stone to soak.

Hardness of the stone
I consider tis stone to be harder than
- Shapton Kuromaku
- Shapton Glass
- Naniwa Chosera - Profesional
- Naniwa Super
- Suehiro Cerax
- King
The above mentioned stones produce mud slurry, meaning the premature break off the abrasive particles and wearing off the stone. Means the knife is removing the stone.
The MISSarka or raYmi stone produces black watery slurry. Watery means the stone is removing steel. This happen with the steels of 60+HRc
When Zische stones used with 59 or less HRc the slurry is a little bit muddy.
Why?
Due to a softer steel the grain penetrates deeper into a steel.
Deeper penetration results in the softer steel grabbing the stone particles hence creating a bit mud slurry.
With the harder steels, less penetrations, no grabbing the particles hence only water black slurry.

Lapping
As we now learned about the slurry and the steel,
it is important for Zische stones to be lapped frequently. Every 50-200x passes.
You going to learn, when the stone does not want to perform it is time to lap the stone with the diamond plate 100-200 grit (no finer).

Isn't too frequent lapping?
I imagine that you have experience sharpening with the sanding paper?
Yes?
How long last the sanding paper? The sanding paper gets blunt after about 50x passes.

Talking 60+HRs steel sharpening, as the Zische stones do not lose the abrasive particles, after 50-200x passes the sharp points of the stone will get wear out.
With the lapping you will sharpen the stone and the stone will work as a Swiss watch again.

How long to Lapp?
When lapped surface frequently I lap less than 3 seconds.
When new to lapping I would recommend to mark with pencil the surface of the stone.
Once you have removed marks it is enough with lapping even the surface of the stone might be not clean perfectly...I do not care....I do not wish to remove more stone than is necessary....the a bit black below does not mean that the stone is clogged....it means that the black ink has been stored on 2nd, 3rd floor below. It is not necessary to get down and remove 3-5x times more than is necessary. The stone will work even surface looking dirty.

Camber the edge
After lapping also camber all 4 edges at 45° to avoid the later breakage of the edge.

Storage
After the use keep the stone stored open and at vertical position allowing air circulation. If the stone left with one face it will get fungus. The stone for being completely dry it needs at least two weeks (summer and shaded).

OIL
I did not use the stone with OIL.
BUT
I cannot help to logically think of using the sharpening stone with oil.
WHY?
In college when we they make us file for hours, as young fellows we got bored as you can imagine. Some of our fellows knew tricks and they put only 1 drop of the oil on the surface of the file. Do you think you could file-off the metal?
NO WAY!!!
When we trying to sharpen the knife...we need to remove metal.
If you using the oil,
the oil is better lubricant than water,
do not expect the sharpening stone to be effective with sharpening.
The use of the oil is famous from the carpentry world where they use high carbon tools prone to oxidation and oil helps with HONING when using COARSE stone for doing so, for example.
Conclusion
OIL = HONING
WATTER = STEEL REMOVAL, faster sharpening


Performance steel removal experiment

In 2017 I did the following experiment.
I started to rectify Fujiwara carpentry bench chisel, White Paper #1 steel, 63-65 HRc.
For the test I use MISSarka F500-1200 (JIS1500/4000) vs. Naniwa Profesional J400.
1 - I started with 50x passes wiht MISSarka J1500 to create scratch pattern and took microscope picture with 200x magnification.
2 - Followed with 50x Naniwa j400. Naniwa erased MISSarkas passes
3 - Scratched 50x times with MISSArka J1500 and erased Naniwa J400
4 - Scratched 50x times with Naniwa J400 and erased MISSarka J1500

No sign of being able to tell which from both stones removes steel faster. So I decided to go down to only 10x passes

5 - Scratched 10x with MISSarka J1500 and erased Naniwa J400
6 - Scratched 10x with Naniwa J400 and not quite erased the MISSarka J1500

Based on this evidence I am quite confident to say, if you are looking into very good performing sharpening stone which will last long with Zische you cannot go wrong.

Bellow is the link for the image.
(For some reason I am unable to post an image.)
 
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Thank you very much for sharing your experiences with those stones. The video was interesting, although the Google translation is awful.
I don't have the 500/1.200 FEPA combination stone but I don't think that there will be a huge difference to the stones I have. Especially the MissArka Ultra seems to be very hard.

During the last months I have not sharpened a lot of knives or tools. My benchstones must feel bored because they haven't seen daylight (as I store them in a locker) for a long time. I can't say how both MissArka stones do well in the long run. Until now there was no need do refresh / resurface them. They still cut as new. I use them with soapy water which makes them quite easy to clean. Stefan Wolf flattened his stones with Sic powder. But a coarse diamond plate is a good (but often expensive) option, too.
Thanks for your suggestions.

As many traditional German brands had to close their business nowadays you can't find many stones Made in Germany. I am surprised that you know Zische and are able to buy these stones in Peru. Japanese stones seem to be available all over the world, but I don't know many guys using Zische stones.
 
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T TdF
Thank you for your detailed review. Very interesting to learn that the Zische stones are available on the American continent(s). I've never seen a US review of any of their stones. Even here in the EU there aren't many places you can buy them.

It also seems that the Arkando series have been renamend "Ray Mi" in your market. They look about the same (see this video for example).

Some things I'd like to add:
Permanent soak
I left the stone soaking for couple of hours and could not feel any change in performance.
BUT
I du not recommend left the stone to soak.
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I have perma-soaked my Missarka 150/500 combo since January '24 (10 months now) because I use it almost daily for a basic kitchen knife maintenance. Every month or so I add a little bit of chlorine or bleach to keep the mold out.

The stone suffers no ill effect from the permasoak, so no reason to be careful in this regard.
OIL = HONING
WATTER = STEEL REMOVAL, faster sharpening
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This is simply not correct. A lubricant helps with cutting and reduces friction, which is exactly what you want from a sharpening stone. And, as you stated, oil is a much better lubricant than water.

If you want to remove a lot of steel fast, you ideally want to use a coarse and HARD stone with OIL. The reason for the coarseness is self-evident. The reason for a hard stone vs a soft muddy stone is because two-body abrasion is more efficient than three-body abrasion (a particle that is fixed in place abrades more steel than a particle that is rolling around between the stone and the knife).

I use an Arkando 150 (or a coarse Norton India) with oil for reprofiling or repairing major edge damage. If you try this with water on the same stones, the stone cuts less and glazes significantly faster than with oil. This is also the reason why the coarse WATERstones intended for the quick removal of steel, tend to be muddy. A waterstone needs to release its particles more readily because the abrasive particles round off and lose their cutting ability more quickly in water.
Now, this "coarse & muddy" waterstone approach also works well but it is less efficient than a hard oilstone because (i) two-body vs three-body abrasion and (ii) you use up more of the waterstone for the amount of metal cut compared to a hard stone used with oil (more dishing and more flattening required).

In conclusion, water is just a lubricant of convenience that works well enough for the majority of handsharpening but for the coarser Zische stones I would recommend trying them with oil (if you don't mind the mess).
 
I have a Zische SiliFix Duo scythe stone that I quite enjoy, though I naturally prefer my own Bull Thistle and Arctic Fox scythe stones. Zische is good stuff, ultimately. Back when I got it I had to order it internationally.
 
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