Finer than red buffing compound?

A

ALittleHigher

Joined
Feb 6, 2017
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Hi everyone,
for the last part of sharpening I'm using either white buffing compound on my paper wheel, or sometimes I will cardboard strop with red buffing compound. I don't know how these fit into the "grit" scheme of comparison and the Grand Unified Grit chart doesn't have buffing compounds in it.

What is one step finer than the red buffing compound (which I believe is thought to be the finest buffing compound)? How about two steps up?
 
This would be Woodstock red rouge buffing compound bought online from the "big tropical river" store. It comes in a 1 pound block I think, pretty waxy. On softer steels like 8cr it can produce a mirror polish over time.
 
Hi,
According to below info, you should skip the red compound, or use it after the green, since its slow (for soft metals, not for stainless)

info from woodstockint/buffing-compounds
D2902—Green Extra Fine Buffing Compound
Great for extra-fine polishing on most metals to bring out that mirror finish. Works best with soft muslin and spiral sewn buffing wheels.
Extra fine

D2901—Red Rouge Buffing Compound
Made for fine polishing on brass and gold. Especially brings out a mirror finish when used with the soft muslin buffing wheel.
For brass or gold

D2912—Green Fine Buffing Compound
For softer metals
Slightly more abrasive than the D2902, this green compound is great for a medium to fine polish with most softer metals. 1 lb. Bar.

D2903—White Buffing Compound
For ivory, plastic and resins
Great for ivory, plastic and resins when used successively with the soft spiral sewn and soft airway buffing wheels.

D2905—Tripoli Buffing Compound
For brass, aluminum and zinc alloy.
A true middle-of-the-road abrasive, Tripoli provides an excellent medium cut for brass, aluminum and zinc alloy.

D2904—Black Buffing Compound
For stainless steel and iron. Designed to be used with "Hard" buffing wheels, this compound is perfect for the initial rough cut on stainless steel and iron.
 
In theory red compound can't cut steel, because it's designed for soft metals. In practice, I know that it *does* cut steel. On a powered buffing wheel, red rouge definitely refines and edge. But it's a weird thing to be using since it's mostly not hard enough to directly cut steel.

Green compound is somewhere between 3 and 1 micron. I would think that diamond compound would be the go to compound if you really want to go finer. 1/2 micron or finer. But, do you really want this polished of an edge? It seems counter productive to cutting performance to me. Just my 2 cents.

Brian.
 
I always thought blue was the finest. But I can never tell the difference against white. Honestly, the bare strop is the finest in the end.
 
Red is usually called "jeweler's rouge" because it is often used for gold/silver/platinum. I got some of it but it seems useless when stropping. Green (chromium oxide) works well, as do very fine diamond compounds. You can get diamond paste/spray in 1, 0.5, and 0.25 micron sizes if you want. 1 micron diamond on balsa and green compound on leather are the only two options I use. This is manual stropping, not powered.


Edited to remove misinformation.
 
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There is lots of misinformation here.
The primary ingredient in red rouge is iron oxide-and it certainly will cut steel! Red rouge was used for many years to put the finest polish on steel blades.
It wasn't "designed" for soft metals, though it polishes them well. Red rouge may be slow cutting on hard steels, but the finish is great.
 
Red compound is just slow, and not any better at polishing than other compounds which work much, much more quickly (white rouge or quality green compounds, for example). If using it by hand for polishing a hardened steel, this becomes obvious. Most anything can be made to 'polish' steel to some degree, if driven on a powered wheel. Even bare leather can do it, and it's silicates are likely harder than the iron oxide of the compound. And slow-cutting compounds driven at high speed will generate more heat at the edge as well.

'Cutting' is sort of a poor description; it's more a burnishing effect, than removing much metal. Weakly-attached metal, such as fine burrs at the edge, can be removed by it; but this is essentially the same effect as stropping with bare leather or denim, or even on the palm of one's hand.

Your blade, in essence, is made of the same raw stuff the red compound is, i.e., oxidized iron. The blade is then additionally hardened by heat treat, and includes carbon and other elements forming carbides, which are much harder than the simple iron oxide of the compound itself. There's literally nothing in the compound that's actually harder than any component of the blade steel itself. The hardness is what determines if the compound can truly 'cut' the steel; if it's not harder, it won't cut. So, it's not hard to see why the simple iron oxide of the compound will be seriously impaired in effectiveness, in trying to 'cut' harder steel and it's carbides.

And used by hand, the same sort of refinement, especially in stropping, can be had on bare leather or denim, as compared to using red compound applied to the same materials. Some of the effect is due more to gently straightening/aligning a very fine edge (like a true 'shaving' edge), as opposed to actually removing metal. Used as such, you're not really gaining much by adding the compound to the leather or denim.

Instead of looking for something to follow the red compound in stropping, I'd just skip it entirely, and replace it with something suitable for hardened steel (green, white rouge, sub-micron diamond/cbn, etc). Almost anything that follows will do just as well and even much better, especially if following with finer AlOx or diamond compounds, for example.

Edited to add:
Most of what I read on so-called 'red rouge', a.k.a. 'jeweler's rouge' indicates it's composed of ferric oxide, a.k.a. 'Iron(III) oxide' (Fe2O3), with a hardness ranked at 5-6 on the Mohs scale. Most simple hardened blade steels will be at least that hard, and some will be harder. And this doesn't even consider the carbides in higher-alloyed steels, which will be much, much harder.


David
 
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Thanks for the replies. I have noticed that cardboard stropping my D2 and S110v would only work if pressure was applied - tricky to do while keeping the angle. Good suggestions all.

I was in a way chasing a theoretical goal rather than practical "need": on some lower end knives I can achieve better-than-factory sharpness in the case of budget Kershaws. But on others although I refine with the red buffing compound and deliberately make sure not to convex the edge it will push cut phone book paper at certain angles but won't swim through it and feels rougher during the cut. I wondered if it was time to move on from the rouge - and it looks like it might be. I had started with the rouge due to having used rouge cloth for polishing feed ramps on pistols.... slowly

I've been influenced by when I read, by accounts posted here on bladeforums of when I see folks step up in grit or diamond paste and achieve a slick mirror edge. I wasn't sure where the rouge fit in so wasn't able to insert myself into those practices.

Seems like it may be time to bite the bullet and finally get a leather strop.
 
Using red rouge is like using a worn out piece of sandpaper that was meant for sanding wood. It kinda works on hardened steel but is completely inefficient.
 
ALittleHigher said:
Thanks for the replies. I have noticed that cardboard stropping my D2 and S110v would only work if pressure was applied - tricky to do while keeping the angle. Good suggestions all.

I was in a way chasing a theoretical goal rather than practical "need": on some lower end knives I can achieve better-than-factory sharpness in the case of budget Kershaws. But on others although I refine with the red buffing compound and deliberately make sure not to convex the edge it will push cut phone book paper at certain angles but won't swim through it and feels rougher during the cut. I wondered if it was time to move on from the rouge - and it looks like it might be. I had started with the rouge due to having used rouge cloth for polishing feed ramps on pistols.... slowly

I've been influenced by when I read, by accounts posted here on bladeforums of when I see folks step up in grit or diamond paste and achieve a slick mirror edge. I wasn't sure where the rouge fit in so wasn't able to insert myself into those practices.

Seems like it may be time to bite the bullet and finally get a leather strop.
Click to expand...
Hi,
You're using powered paper buffing wheels for everything right?
Do you have any stones?
Try this,
after your paper wheels,
put on a microbevel using 1-20 edge leading alternating passes
ultra light (under 100 grams on a scale)
 
Bucketstove,

What stone were you suggesting I try that on?

And yes, so far I'm using either powered paper wheels with white compound or manually stropping on stiff cardboard with red compound. As far as stones go, I've had a pocket soft Arkansas. I have experimented with 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper. I switched to the red rouge and paper wheels because I wanted something that wouldn't remove so much during more frequent edge maintenance
 
ALittleHigher said:
Bucketstove,

What stone were you suggesting I try that on?

And yes, so far I'm using either powered paper wheels with white compound or manually stropping on stiff cardboard with red compound. As far as stones go, I've had a pocket soft Arkansas. I have experimented with 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper. I switched to the red rouge and paper wheels because I wanted something that wouldn't remove so much during more frequent edge maintenance
Click to expand...
Hi,
Any stone you own :)
It sounds like you're describing a tiny burr
and a few edge leading passes slightly elevated ought to take care of that

soft arkansas ought to do just fine for this purpose (microbeveling) as its not a lot of metal to remove
 
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