Fire Failure and Wild Grapes

[milani74]

Went for a hike today and got rained on pretty hard. I thought what a great chance to try and get a fire started.
This is at a the road. Its hard to tell, but it was raining very hard.

Found a dead tree stump and it was fat wood.

I cheated and used a bic lighter to light this piece of fatwood.
Then I wanted to see if I could light it using a fire steel. I used napkins for tinder. It got wet very fast and was incredibly hard to get to light. Once it was lit, it would smolder soon after. This was partly due to the tinder being wet, but mostly was due to the kindling. By the time I could make fuzz sticks, or small shavings the rain would soak them. The rain was just coming down too hard.

Walking back, I found wild grapes.

I collected these in a matter of a minute.

There was literally hundreds in the area I was in.

On my way home, I seen this little guy.

Lessons learned today. I should have got my tarp out or built a small shelter to protect the fire before I started to build it. Also, natural tinder when it is raining is very hard to come buy.
What do you do if its raining? Do you start the fire first or wait till after you build a shelter or after it stops raining? I was trying not to use PJCB's but in that case, I am tending to think it might be necessary?
Also, is there any special considerations needed to take before eating the grapes?

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Also, is there any special considerations needed to take before eating the grapes?

Hi milani, you may already know this but just in case, you don't, Wild Grape has a poisonous look-alike called Canada or Common Moonseed (Menispermum canadense). I didn't know if it grows in your area, but here is a link including Moonseed's range.

Doc

 

[Pyre]

The more you need a fire, the harder it is to light one. Guess it's true after all.

 

[Bushman5]

got any cedars near you? you can pull off bark and scrape the inside for DRY fuzzy tinder that sparks lights with sparks. Find an old cedar stump and pry off pieces, the inside stuff is 100% dry and splits down tiny.

I'm on the Wet Coast of BC for what its worth

 

[rwiggins]

Here is a tip about using fatwood for tinder. If the spine of your knife is flat (sharp edges), you can scrape the fatwood creating a very fine "fuzz". You can use the blade of the knife, but use the edge closest to the handle and hold it perpendicular to the fatwood. Make a pile of it and it will start from a firesteel with no problem. As it burns, throw on some regular, thin shavings from the fatwood. Build up from there.

Oh! Forgot to add, my priorities are clothing, shelter and then fire, so in answer to your question, shelter before fire.

 

[rwiggins]

Good point Doc, this is from wikipedia:

"The fruit of Canada Moonseed are poisonous and can be fatal. While foraging for wild grapes one should examine the seeds of the fruit to make sure one is not eating moonseeds: moonseeds have a single crescent-shaped seed, while grapes have round seeds. Differences in taste should also be an indicator of whether or not a specimen is grape or Moonseed, moonseeds have a taste that is described as "rank"."

Read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menispermum_canadense#Warning

Key things to look for:

1. seed shape - single seed, crescent-shaped = BAD
2. taste - rank = BAD

Again, thanks, Doc for pointing that out. I had no clue eating many a wild grape and muscadine!

Hi milani, you may already know this but just in case, you don't, Wild Grape has a poisonous look-alike called Canada or Common Moonseed (Menispermum canadense). I didn't know if it grows in your area, but here is a link including Moonseed's range.

Doc

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Good point Doc, this is from wikipedia:

"The fruit of Canada Moonseed are poisonous and can be fatal. While foraging for wild grapes one should examine the seeds of the fruit to make sure one is not eating moonseeds: moonseeds have a single crescent-shaped seed, while grapes have round seeds. Differences in taste should also be an indicator of whether or not a specimen is grape or Moonseed, moonseeds have a taste that is described as "rank"."

Read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menispermum_canadense#Warning

Key things to look for:

1. seed shape - single seed, crescent-shaped = BAD
2. taste - rank = BAD

Again, thanks, Doc for pointing that out. I had no clue eating many a wild grape and muscadine!

Hey rwiggins,

There are 2 more differences - the leaf stem of Moonseed is peltate, meaning the stem joins the leaf inboard of the margin (edge), also Wild Grape (Vitis spp.) climbs with the use of tendrils, while Moonseed's stalk does the twining and climbing.

Doc

 

[rwiggins]

Thanks, Doc! I was just reading about that. I appreciate this kind of information!!!

 

[Normark]

Hey Guys...

Just a couple of things...

If the local fatwood is of poor quality (low resin) it will be much harder to start then that with high resin content...

The best way to avoid accidental poisoning is by getting a Peterson's field guide and taking it with you wherever you go..

Wild grape and moon seed, although similar look Nothing alike once you know what they look like...

I do agree that one should be Very careful what they eat unless they are Sure of what they are eating..

Shrooms are one of those things I give a wide berth to when looking for wild edibles, as many look Extremely similar..

However I am educating myself now on them...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST

 

[mete]

Make sure they're grapes and not deer or moose droppings !! You ought to be able to quickly tell by taste if they are grapes or something else. Did the turtle eat the grapes ?

 

[stingray4540]

"The Cherokee used Moonseed as a laxative, and as a gynecological and venereal aid."

So, at what point are they fataly poisonous? If you can "taste" them to see if they are rank, I'm assuming they aren't that harmful in a small quantity?

P.S. I would have set up the tarp first. Even if you were able to get the fire going, it wouldn't do you much good if you are soaking wet.

 

[luckykitty]

I'm still having trouble to get a fire going with the going gear firesteel, unless I use alcohol gel or pcbs ...

 

[milani74]

Hi milani, you may already know this but just in case, you don't, Wild Grape has a poisonous look-alike called Canada or Common Moonseed (Menispermum canadense). I didn't know if it grows in your area, but here is a link including Moonseed's range.

Doc

Thanks Doc! I didnt know about moonseeds and did not eat these grapes yet. Looking at that website, the seeds dont look like they are moonseeds. They look like sunflower seeds and more circular.

Here is a tip about using fatwood for tinder. If the spine of your knife is flat (sharp edges), you can scrape the fatwood creating a very fine "fuzz". You can use the blade of the knife, but use the edge closest to the handle and hold it perpendicular to the fatwood. Make a pile of it and it will start from a firesteel with no problem. As it burns, throw on some regular, thin shavings from the fatwood. Build up from there.

Oh! Forgot to add, my priorities are clothing, shelter and then fire, so in answer to your question, shelter before fire.

Ya. I tried to hold my Izula purpendicular to the fatwood and got some good shavings from it. But couldnt get the fat wood to ignite from the firesteel. I did get the napkin to burn which in turn lit the fat wood but, I used only 1 chunk of fat wood and it did not lite the other wood. My thing was I wanted to simulate using a small bit of fatwood and as natual tinder as I could. (Trying to simulate if it was cold, I got stuck out in the rain with nothing but what was in my pocket)

But I think you are right rwiggins, my proirity should have been shelter then fire.

Hey Guys...

Just a couple of things...

If the local fatwood is of poor quality (low resin) it will be much harder to start then that with high resin content...

The best way to avoid accidental poisoning is by getting a Peterson's field guide and taking it with you wherever you go..

Wild grape and moon seed, although similar look Nothing alike once you know what they look like...

I do agree that one should be Very careful what they eat unless they are Sure of what they are eating..

Shrooms are one of those things I give a wide berth to when looking for wild edibles, as many look Extremely similar..

However I am educating myself now on them...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST

Thanks Eric and good points. I really need to learn more about edible plants.

 

[fishiker]

Problem with the fire aside, the pics are nice. It's calling for rain here the next few days. I'm hoping we can get out some and my girlfriend is hoping it rains hard enough to stay at home or not at all. Thanks for sharing.

 

[luckykitty]

Thanks Eric and good points. I really need to learn more about edible plants.

I just found the last course for this year - it is a hike with an instructor showing all the local edible plants with a picnic afterwards. That'll be fun ...

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Hey Guys...

Just a couple of things...

If the local fatwood is of poor quality (low resin) it will be much harder to start then that with high resin content...

The best way to avoid accidental poisoning is by getting a Peterson's field guide and taking it with you wherever you go..

Wild grape and moon seed, although similar look Nothing alike once you know what they look like...
I do agree that one should be Very careful what they eat unless they are Sure of what they are eating..

Shrooms are one of those things I give a wide berth to when looking for wild edibles, as many look Extremely similar..

However I am educating myself now on them...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST

That is the key, of course.

Doc

 

[DOC-CANADA]

"The Cherokee used Moonseed as a laxative, and as a gynecological and venereal aid."

So, at what point are they fataly poisonous? If you can "taste" them to see if they are rank, I'm assuming they aren't that harmful in a small quantity?

P.S. I would have set up the tarp first. Even if you were able to get the fire going, it wouldn't do you much good if you are soaking wet.

"Moonseed contains isoquinoline alkaloids, including dauricine, a compound with curare-like action. The fruits, which resemble small purple grapes, are the main cause of poisoning, and when eaten in quantity can be fatal. There are reports of them causing loss of life in children mistaking them for grapes." (Common Poisonous Plants and Mushrooms of North America, Nancy J. Turner/Adam
F. Szczawinski, Timber Press, 2001, ISBN# 0-88192-312-5, pages 93-94)

RE:rank taste, it's probably just me, but I don't trust anything I read in Wikipedia. That's not to say they don't have a rank taste. I haven't tried them

Doc

Edited to add: "Grape and moonseed can be told apart by taste, also. But children, sometimes, are not stopped by the difference in taste and poisonings have occurred. Fortunately moonseed, native to eastern North America, is a rare plant, or poisonings might be more frequent. " ( Deadly Harvest, John M. Kingsbury, Holt Paperback, Holt Rinehart & Winston, 1972, ISBN# 0-03-091479-5, page 116)

"Symptoms: Convulsions result from poisoning with Menispermum" (AMA Handbook of Poisonous & Injurious Plants, Dr. Kenneth F. Lampe/ Mary Ann McCann, Chicago Review Press, 1985, ISBN# 0-89970-183-3, page 117)

 

[pitdog]

Great pics buddy and you are doing the best thing possible by practicing your fires on days like that !
I have found that without cover on a day like that 99% of commonly used tinders are useless, PCB's,Fatwood dust,Cedar bark,hand sanitizer...all have failed miserably during hard rain and wind.
The only one I have found not to fail is the commercial firestarters that are like big chunky matches that you strike.They are soaked in parrafin and burn very hot for around 8 minutes which is long enough to get your other tinders like fatwood going.
Bike tyre inner tube is also very good as a secondary tinder in very wet conditions and will light even after soaking underwater.

Here is some inner tube wrapped around some fatwood, it was submerged for a few minutes underwater and then lit as soon as I fetched it back out....

In wet conditions you also need to raise your fire off the wet floor otherwise moisture is just sucked up into your fire........

Bushy lives in my neck of the woods so if he says he can get one going just with Cedar I believe him but it is usually tough work !

 

[milani74]

Thanks for the input guys. After reading pitdog's post, I researched this http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-fire-sticks/

Has anyone tried these? They look fairly simple to make and burn for 8 mins.