Fire Hoods

J

Joe Talmadge

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
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The Brigade Quartermasters catalog has a fire hood that is stored in a modestly-sized tube (looks about 6" long, 2" diameter). I think it sells for about $65. I've been considering adding one of these to my standard "buildings and airplanes" bag. The question is ... does anyone know if these things work? The claim is that the hood can make the air safe to breathe for, I can't remember, something like 20 minutes or so.

Joe
 
Sounds like the OBA they used to issue in the Navy. OxygenBreathingApparatus you put the bag on your head and pull the string and a chemical canister produces pure O2. They work well but saturate the contents (Your head) with oxygen, so don't smoke for a while after you use it... (or poof!)
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-Sam.
 
SammyB,

I think you're not correct with saying it is an Oxygen producing apperatus.
As far as I researched it, you breath the contaminated air and the filter agents inside the container filter out all! dangerous gasses/chemical vapours EVEN Carbonmonoxide, Cyanide gasses, chlorine gasses, H2S etc.
The plastic clear hood is highly resistant to heat (you don't want it to melt!

My only problem is that it's shelf life is 2 years that would set me back $300-400 each 2 years. On the other side what is $300-400 each 2 years when it could save 4 people!

Cheers,

Bagheera

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[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 04-10-2000).]
 
Right, it's more of a fire-safe respirator that filters out dangerous particles and gasses, than some kind of oxygen tank.

Just FYI, I asked Doug Ritter at Equipped to Survive about this, since his big interest is in airplane ditching. He felt that the Evac-U8 was a good product, though he sounded a note of caution on both the product's claimed shelf life and claimed amount of time it offer protection.

Joe
 
I have a hard time imagining how it filters out CO and other similar combustion gases. And even if it does, it won't help in a fire situation. Having no oxygen in the air to breathe will kill you whether or not you filter out the rest of the bad things. You need oxygen, a filter hood, whatever kind of filter it may be, will not let you survive in a burning building.

It would seem to me that you could put together an oxygen or compressed air device, and it would cost you less, offer better, more reliable use, and restorable or longer shelf life.

On the idea of sticking them in a kit, I do not see them as being very useful. The likelihood of ever needing them, and the ability to employ them fast enough to be of use, seems rather small. I would rather spend my time leaving a burning building than finding and putting on a filter mask.


Stryver, there is a reason the military tells it's people explicitly _not_ to attempt to use the chem masks in a fire situation.
 
Originally posted by Stryver:
Having no oxygen in the air to breathe will kill you whether or not you filter out the rest of the bad things.

It would seem to me that you could put together an oxygen or compressed air device, and it would cost you less, offer better, more reliable use, and restorable or longer shelf life.
Click to expand...
If there's a fire going on, there's plenty enough oxygen to breathe. Replacement systems for Halogens consists of inert gases which lowers the oxygen content enough that a fire cannot be sustained -- and also adds a bit carbon dioxide to keept the breathing reflex going.

How much do you think a tank of air giving as long useful time as a hood would mass and how large would it be?

 
Smoke inhalation and the injury to your respiratory system as well as the toxins that you end up inhaling are the biggest threat to your survival during and after a fire. You've all probably have heard the advice "stay low in a fire". The reason is the highest concentration of oxygen is low to the ground. After all, if there is enough oxygen to fuel the fire there is enough left to breath though it is a lower partial pressure of oxygen, think high altitude.

Unfortunately carbon monoxide likes to hug the ground in a fire as well as hydrogen cyanide both by-products of house/office-building fire. What filter hoods do is protect your lungs from the carbon monoxide and other deadly gases (kinda like your basic chemical warfare gas masks)plus protect your lungs from the burning particles and heat (yes you would be breathing-in BURNING particles in a fire). The hood allows also allows you to see in the smoke filled enviroment. Remember what campfire smoke does to your eyes? Well smoke does that to your eyes and your lungs. Your lungs don't like smoke and will spasm (bronchospasm), tightening up in order to protect your lungs. Unfortunately this really hurts your ability to breath to say the least. So if you don't have a hood and you are trying to evacuate through a building filled with smoke down the smoke filled stairwells (people always leave a fire door blocked open)the hood filters will allow you to see where your going, allow you to breath and maybe even help your coworkers get out as well. Since the hood will allow you 20 minutes of breathing I think you can make it out of the building as long as you don't stop for a coffee break.

Now as far as causes of death in fires you are more likely to be killed by the smoke, not the flames. Mortality of burn patients is directly related to how much smoke inhalation injury has occured. For example, my Respiratory Disease case study book (Wilkins, 1998) shows a dramtic increase in mortality of burn patients who have inhalation injury compared to burn patients without. For example, a burn patient with a 60% 3rd degree burn has a mortality rate of about 50%. Same patient adding inhalation injury is 100%. So smoke really messes you up.


Now what about mortality without burns?? When you burn a modern resisdential office you produce alot of really toxic stuff from the carpets, furniture, wall coverings etc...
You get aldehdes and oranic acids from the burning wood, cotton paper and acrylics which irritate the hell out of your lungs. You get carbon monoxide (bad stuff CO) which binds to your hemoglobin preventing your red blood cells from carrying oxygen. Breath enough CO and we cannot help you, you will be dead. You also get hydrogen cyanide from the burning of nylon, upholsteries, basically anything made of polyurethane. Hydrogen cyanide(HCN) like CO is VERY deadly. HCN actually gets into your cells and prevents them from using what oxygen you do have (cyanide is used in gas chambers for this reason).

Ok, so lets say the CO didn't get you and neither did the HCN. You could still have THERMAL injury to your respiratory tract mostly above your vocal cords but sometimes into your trachea. If you get thermal injury to your upper respiratory tract you get alot of blistering, swelling, thick saliva and your glottis closes meaning you can't breath unless we intubate you and breath for you.

So lets say you don't have much thermal injury. Then you have to worry about chemical injury to your lungs from the irritant-laden soot particles and toxic gases. Breathing in all that smoke while you wandered around unable to see where you were going will end up causing lots of fun complications. Tracheobronchitis, bronchospasm, bronchorrhea, and in severe cases, pulmonary edema. Think of the chemical damage as pneumonia caused by chemicals rather than a bacteria or virus.

Of course this is assuming you survived the fire. So basically you can choose purchase one of the special hoods or not. Personally I think they are a pretty good deal. That reminds me, I've got to go get me another one of these hoods.
 
Filter masks won't filter out CO. I believe a charcoal filter will remove HCN, and any decent filter should remove smoke particles.
There is no reason to expect CO to settle to the floor in a fire, nor to expect O2 to do the same. There is reason to expect the warmer combustion products to rise, and displace the cold, cleaner, unburned air. If there is unburned air present, you can expect to find it close to the floor. The already burned air will almost entirely devoid of O2.
I can see value in these fire hoods if you frequent an area with a high hazard of fire. I don't see them as valuable in a typical home or automobile. You should be able, and trained, to leave the building in the time it would take to put the hood on. The military expects it's soldiers to be able to don their gas masks in 10 - 15 seconds, carried at the ready on their belts. It would take me about that long to leave my house, maybe a few seconds longer if I paused and _opened_ the window, as opposed to breaking it.
If you do frequent an area with a high risk for structural fire, and the likelihood of needing to escape through smokey rooms to get out, I would think you'd carry something better than just a filter. And if you decided a filter was all you needed, you should be able to find a hood type device with a detachable filter, so that all you needed to replace when the lifespan expired was the filter, and not the entire hood assembly.


Stryver
 
Originally posted by Stryver:
You should be able, and trained, to leave the building in the time it would take to put the hood on. The military expects it's soldiers to be able to don their gas masks in 10 - 15 seconds, carried at the ready on their belts.
Click to expand...

I know how long it takes me to crawl around all of my home, with eyes closed and holding my breath. Less than people usually think, just like most people can't guess anywhere near how long it'd take to clear the class room when the instructor puts the question.

Can one really be considerd qualified if it takes as long as 15 seconds to put on a mask?

 
Stryver, the mask Joe Talmadge is talking about, the EVAC-U8 is a four stage filter system that filters out in order listed by the manufacturer CO, H2S, Ozone, HCN, Sulfur Dioxide, Ammonia, Chlorine, Benzene, Phosegene, TCE, Formaldehyde, Smoke particles...etc...etc...(so filter systems can scrub CO
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5 year shelf life, hood withstands 1500 degrees F. Look it up at Brigade Quartermasters website. http://www.actongear.com

Now it may be true that if you live and work in buildings that you can get out of in 15 seconds then a EVAC-U8 hood would be a bad investment. But if you are in high rise building or travel by subway or small private plane then they are a bargain.
As far as CO settling to the ground, well maybe I should have phrased that better. Gas goes from a high concentration to a low concentration so basically the CO produced by the fire is moving across a concentration gradient filling in the areas where CO concentrations are low, like the ground. Though the concentration of CO will vary depending on many factors, it will still be there for you to breath whether you are standing and breathing or crawling and breathing. But there is less smoke lower to the ground.

My complaint about the EVAC-U8 (someone thought long and hard naming this product
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) is the claimed time of use '20 minutes' and the shelf life claim of 5 years. There are too many factors in a fire to make a broad claim of 20 minutes. Plus the plastic look makes me nervous, kinda reminds me of saran-wrap.

I have seen better versions for the same price. If I can remember where I saw them I will post that information.

 
I don't know much about these hoods but I do go inside burning buildings on a regular basis as a firefighter for the city of RochesterN.Y. I don't have hoods or chain ladders or anything like that in my house.What I do use are smoke detectors, one on every floor from basement to attic and a couple of extinguishers. Detectors go off when you burn the toast, so if theres a real fire it will go of when the fire is still very small.Get out and get out as fast as possible. The fires I've went to where we lost several people at a time all either didn't have working detectors or they tried to put it out themselves. My advice is plan how to get out of your home with your family install detectors and when on the road stay on the first floor of the hotel. If you do this and still want the hoods or feel they will help in other types of fires buy them!For me based on what I've seen and my needsI'm very confident with my plan.
Good luck, stay low and go!
 
I stand corrected. The manufacturer has some interesting variants and info posted...


I can see use for these in a plane, or backup for emergency crew. I still don't think they fit well into a good plan for home use, though I can see different opinions in large apartment complexes. If you do get one, see if you can order a dummy to practice with.


Stryver
 
Just to elaborate on my plans for this product ... I agree that it doesn't make sense, at least for me, in the home. I planned to put it in my "buildings and airplanes" bag -- that is, my small bag of equipment I carry into buildings and planes. I've done a little research, nothing extensive, but I feel between unfamiliar surroundings (buildings) and a possible crush of people (planes and buildings), it isn't always possible to exit quickly, and a fire hood could be an important advantage.

Joe
 
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