fire pit and poor mans quenching oils??

O

ouporblowup

Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
171
working on my first knife and i dont have any equiptment yet

so i planned on using my fire pit for heat treating and i also heard of car oil or vegetable

oil for heat treating the knives.

also what woods and what kind of fire will i need to cherry my blade up?

so will this work for a beginner like me?

u guys are the experts, so what worked when u started out??

ooo
 
Have you already chosen a blade steel? If so, what kind?
 
You can get perfect results by shipping it out for heat treating & you can use any suitable knife steel .

If you have to do it all yourself, you need to pick a steel suited to backyard heat treat
that is Aldo's 1084fg


I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V15

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings & the Loveless book. Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel, 1070, 1080, 1084.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for knifemaking.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel with great results, but is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very good temperature control and proper fast quench oil Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309



Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here


V15 Added Craftsman speed modification link
 
If you want an opinion from "the experts", almost every one will tell you to send it out for HT, or find a nearby maker to do the HT with you with his proper equipment.
While it is possible to do HT in a fire pit and use old motor oil, the chances of failure are far greater than the ones for success.
 
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I'd go with a simple steel that reaches its full potential if quenched at non-magnetic and some canola oil.

There is a lot to it... read the stickies a whole bunch of times, it took me a while to really grasp everything.
 
bladsmth said:
While it is possible to do HT in a fire pit and use old motor oil, the chances of failure are far greater than the ones for success.
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's why I bought 1080, then a kiln and some quench oil.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
its 1080

my problem with the stickies is just an info overload

im pretty young and inexperienced when it comes to any metal working equiptment

id like to do what the ol boys did

but sending it out sounds pretty tempting, especially knowing its right


whats the average price per blade when sending it out??


thanks alot guys

ooo
 
You might want to ask questions like this at primitive forums and sites. The experts here typically exercise much more modern controls and standards than what you are wanting to work with. I have been attempting to take in both directions, as I deeply appreciate both! Working with salvaged metals, forging via a hot forge fire, heat-treating to noncritical via magnetic and color discernment and quenching in water or oil (typically veggie oils like canola or peanut), tempering via color runs in the steel, hand finishing, etc. I believe being able to learn steels and basic (or primitive) methods an awesome aspiration and achievement! (Even if the results are not at the top range of space age techno capacities.) Good luck!
 
ouporblowup said:
its 1080

my problem with the stickies is just an info overload

im pretty young and inexperienced when it comes to any metal working equiptment

id like to do what the ol boys did

but sending it out sounds pretty tempting, especially knowing its right


whats the average price per blade when sending it out??


thanks alot guys

ooo
Click to expand...

I think you can get a blade done for 5-15$ or send out a very large batch of like steels and have the batch done for about $100 total.

The $50 knife shop has some decent info on how to build a tuyere style forge. You can make your own charcoal and heat treat simpler steels this way. You need some black pipe and a cheap blower to make a simple forge. I have never done this but it does work.

Wally Hayes has a tactical katana video that has a great section on doing your heat treat this way.
 
I heat treated some 1080 in the woods once with a HUGE bed of coals, which I fanned with one of those pads you sit on.
Just about got heat exhaustion, but it worked (channel-lock pliers don't give alot of reach). Quenched it in brine.
It can be great fun going primitive. You might not get the absolute greatest results, but it gets you in touch with...something or other.:)
 
Personally I would stay away from water based quenches at first. When you hear that ping sound that is your blade cracking your heart dies a little.

Wayne Suhrbier
 
ouporblowup said:
working on my first knife and i dont have any equiptment yet so i planned on using my fire pit for heat treating and i also heard of car oil or vegetable oil for heat treating the knives.

also what woods and what kind of fire will i need to cherry my blade up?

so will this work for a beginner like me?
Click to expand...

I think you should be able to use a fire pit but there is more than just building a big fire. You want to use charcoal for fuel. To get it to burn hot enough you need to force air through it.

CAUTION - You are dealing with flames, hot steel, and oil. If you're not careful you can burn your house down, your neighbor's house down, or burn yourself with hot charcoal, hot steel, or hot oil, or all three. This is no time for distractions and goofing around.

Here are some pictures of a coffee can forge that I use to harden 1080/1084 steel.

Forgecoffeecannew53sm.jpg

The pipe going into the base of the coffee can is for the forced air. I use a salvaged blower from a hot water heater (not shown) but a hand held hair drier might work.

Forgecoffeecannew54sm.jpg

This shows the crude grate that holds the charcoal, as well as the forced air pipe entering the base of the coffee can.

Forgecoffeecanused03sm.jpg

I've been using this setup for three years, about thirty knives, with the last time about a week ago.

It's small and can't handle blades over four inches in length.

It takes a minute or two for a blade to get red hot, but most of my blades are only 1/8" thick. I'm sure 1/4" thick steel will take longer and need more charcoal to get it up to temp.

Blades usually emerge with strange bumps on them. I'm told that this occurs when the charcoal touches the steel and the presence of the hot carbon (charcoal) results in localized lowering of the melting point and the bumps. Whatever the reason, it can be quite frustrating to finish a blade nice and smooth and then have it emerge with the surface all goofed up. On the other hand it can add a certain "character" to the blade.

If the bumps aren't enough, then there's also the black slag (?) that covers the newly hardened blade and has to be sanded off before tempering in the over.

I make my own charcoal out of scrap wood but if I had to buy it I would look for charcoal that is not squished into briquettes. Why? I'm not sure. Just because, I guess. I've never used the briquettes. The forced air causes the charcoal to burn hot and FAST. I have to refill the "forge" after each blade.

I use canola oil for a quench. Warm it up first so it is less viscus and more fluid. I normally harden from three to six blades and the oil can get quite hot. You don't want to get it hot enough to the reach the flash point. The last time I hardened some blades I quenched the blades in the oil and when they had cooled down enough so that they didn't sizzle in the oil I transferred the blade to some soapy cold water. The cold water was to get them cooler without heating up the oil. The soap was to help start the clean up of the blades, and I think it did help.

Good luck,

- Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
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man thanks everyone

dang LonePine that is basically exactly what im looking for

thanks alot for those pictures to i think im gonna have a try at it

ooo
 
I've modified the coffee can top by cutting a slot or groove in it. The Handle of the knife goes there so that the blade is sitting more or less horizontal rather than more or less vertical in the bed of coals.

- Paul Meske
 
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