Firemen Please help

T

TomW

Joined
Oct 7, 1998
Messages
1,128
If I wanted to make a knife for firemen to use it brings up a bunch of interesting problems. I'd appreciate any answers that a fireman could help me with.
Some might seem dumb so please bear with me.
First, do firemen carry knives?
If so, are they issued gear?
What kind if knife and how is it carried?
How hot could it get outside the coat?
How useful is a knife as firefighting equipment?
Are there many situations where a fireman would have to do any cutting or would the knife have to be more pry bar than knife?
Have you ever had a knife that failed because of the heat?
What would be the ideal firemans knife?
Thanks
Tom

[This message has been edited by TomW (edited 08-01-2000).]
 
As a former Fireman, I'll give it a shot.
First, YES! It would get too hot outside the bunker gear. (The coat and pants you see them wearing all the time)
Any knives/tools would have to be inside the gear, but honestly, I can't recall a single time in over 300 responses that I ever needed a knife inside an involved structure.
The time a knife is needed is usually when responding to an automobile accident, and then usually a seatbelt cutter is far better suited to the job than an actual knife.
I don't remember which, but it seems to me that one of the MOD knives has an integral seat belt cutter? (somebody help me out, I'm too lazy to go look.)
This is a GREAT idea if you really want to carry a knife.
IMHO, the best tool you could carry IF you insisted on carrying something in your Bunker gear (or under it) would be a good Multi-tool.
Most firemen don't carry any spare equipment and wear as little under the bunker suit as possible. it gets HOT in there!
Hope I'm not busting a bubble for you, but I don't see much market for one.



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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!




[This message has been edited by Ken Cook (edited 08-01-2000).]
 
Indeed there is a MOD knife with a little cutting attachment on the base of the handle. It's the Duane Dieter CQD. I belive the attachment was originally for cutting zip ties (Cable ties to you yanks). It looks like it would work on seatbelts extremely well.

James

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The beast we are, lest the beast we become.
 
Thanks for the reply Ken.
I'm not making a knife but got a call about sewing a sheath with fireproof material and got to wondering.
 
Tom, I recently spoke to a fireman who was wearing his yellow pants. I noticed he had a Gerber multitool in the nylon sheath on his suspenders.
 
So that's why firemen wear red suspenders!

David Rock

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AKTI Member # A000846
Stop when you get to bone.
 
Tom,

As a former fireman (18 years dealing with fire) I have to agree with Ken. The only time I ever needed a knife was when responding to vehical accidents or some sort of rescue work. In fact the only time I recall ever using a knife was to cut the seatbelts in an auto accident and one time to cut the horn wires on a cop car that had rearended a big truck and we couldnt get the hood open.
 
Tomw, this was discussed on the spyderco page 2-3 weeks ago, but I'll give it another shot. I work for the city of Rochester fire dept. My company has close to 3,000 runs a yesr. Most fire fighters that I know carry a knife usally what ever they already owned before getting on the job, so I see alot of saks, stockmans ect. . Lately I see more and more going to better knives like Delicas, e-z outs ect. most don't want to spend alot of money and most will abuse it.Cutting seatbelts is way down on my use list plus there are better and safer tools for that job.I cut rags cardboard and food in the firehouse, and on a run may have to cut open burned mattresses and stuffed chairs to get at smoldering fire. Also have to cut the burned section of carpet away to remove it from the house. I have used it to score around a switch plate that I had to remove but had many layers of paint over it,I have seen guys pry ,chisle and and abuse knives in every way. I agree I don't need a knife till the fires knocked down however I also know guys who got tangled in wires that drop down in the hallway of a highrise fire, so its nice to have access to it even if you think you won't need it. By the way my facepiece is rubber and helmet is plastic and they don't melt so I would not worry about zytle.Also remember alot of us work in the getto and responed to shootings stabbings ect. and in our town they took 3,000 pitbulls off the street last year, so I like large sharp knives. Had to go pick my daughters up from cheerleading and was in a hurry I'll try to add some more here. tom whatever you may use a knive for around your house we use ours for around the firehouse. You avoid the bad parta of town we work in them. Not many will tell you they carry for other then work reasons but its true in some cases.Just as there have been times a knife wasn't the right tool but it was what you had and the job needed to be done so you used it so will we only alot more. Everyone carries folders that I know of no fd.s issue a knife. I think 50/50 with clip and one hand opening with a strong tip is what is needed. Just remembered, awhile back on a child struck call our trauma box would not open the latches were stuck( someone had closed it with a roll of tape between the trays) I pried them open with my cs tanto point voyager the only tool I had close at hand. The tanto is not a knife style that will have wide apeal to most ff's however.
How could I forget? We cut lots of plastic and tarpaper to staple over the windows that get smashed out and the vent hole that gets cut in the roof.
[This message has been edited by Lone Hunter (edited 08-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lone Hunter (edited 08-01-2000).]
 
Hiya Tom!

First off, ignore Beowolf, cuz he's a former firefighter and he lives in Nevada.... those guys are NUTS!!!

Now for the answer...
As a former firefighter who lives in Nevada, please allow me to address your post....

Aww crap, just noticed that Beowolf said pretty much what I was gonna say!
(Lucky guess, B!)
wink.gif


Okay, here's what I carried....
Maybe I was the guy that Frank saw, cuz I used to carry a Gerber Multi-tool on my suspenders...I also carried a Buck Crosslock, but never used it.

Besides the much over-emphasized need to cut seat belts (Like Lone Hunter said, there's better and safer tools for that job) the only time I can think of a firefighter needing a knife FAST, would be if there was a broken supply line and a fast repair needed to be made. Any type of serrated blade would work pretty well for that.

The majority of fire departments in this country are volunteer (They still like to be called "professional" though, thankyouverymuch!) they tend to add all kinds of things that they probably could do without, but keep "just in case". I was on a buncha-buncha runs during my time, and not once did I have to use any tool that was on my "bells and whistles kit".

Umm... it just dawned on me that I DID use a knife to cut a seatbelt.... I probably coulda waited until we got the seatbelt cutter from the truck, but I wanted to show off. Poor girl that saw me coming at her with a Spydie Police Model probably thought I coulda waited too, but it was a SEATBELT, DAMMIT, AND I NEEDED TO CUT IT!!
(After that's when I bought the Crosslock...... still brandie new.... make me an offer!)

Okay, I've droned on enough.

As a final thought, ... uhhh... I don't have one.

Off to learn how to pay attention,
I remain,
VG

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Vampire Gerbil: Nosferatus Rodentus Moderatus; similar to a domestic gerbil, except for the odd accent and little black cape.
------------------
Odd Pictures at Photopoint
An assortment of pictures I decided to share with anyone that was so bored they wanted to check out my antics. I did this to prove that I am indeed sane. Be advised that there's hardly any nudity. Feel free to sign the Guestbook!!
Manifesto of Madness
I wrote most of that at work after drinking massive amounts of coffee. I needed to look busy and that dribbled out of my head. There's also a whole bunch of Optical Illusions.
The Deadly and Scary Leatherman Micra Website.
Be warned that the tactics used at that last site are not for the faint of heart!
A Ballistic Knife in Action
Even though the guy in those pictures has the same exact tattoos as me, I have no idea who he is!
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vampiregerbil@aol.com

[This message has been edited by Vampire Gerbil (edited 08-01-2000).]
 
Hiya Tom, I'm back!!!
Rather than edit my former post, I thought it best to just make another, thereby increasing your odds of making this a FLAMING POST!!
smile.gif


Okay, you could care less if this is flaming or not, but I thought it'd be cute, since this was a FIRE related thread... and it'd be a FLAMING post....
.....
?

ANYways, I decided to answer your questions to the best of my ability by pasting your questions (neatly italicized) and supplying my answers.
Pretty neat idea, huh?
smile.gif

Here goes:

First, do firemen carry knives?
Yep

If so, are they issued gear?
Not in any department that I can think of. Usually rescue vehicles will have the tools on the trucks that would be necessary. A crash-axe and seatbelt cutter are pretty much the only items I can think of that have sharp edges... besides the axes.

What kind if knife and how is it carried?
See above answer.

How hot could it get outside the coat?
REALLY FRIKKIN' HOT!!! I dunno.... probably as hot as 200 degrees, if I remember correctly... but it's a DRY heat, so it only feels about 180.

How useful is a knife as firefighting equipment?
We pretty much covered this already in earlier responses. If you're thinking about making a blade specifically for firefighters, it'd probably sell if marketed correctly, due to the "Bells and whistles" theory.

Are there many situations where a fireman would have to do any cutting or would the knife have to be more pry bar than knife?
Seatbelts occasionally, busted hoses... that's about all I can think of. As for the Prybar aspect, our department sent in an "Irons team" that carried an axe and haligan bar. The halligan's a big frikkin crowbar like thingie that can be used in conjunction with a flat head axe (which acts as a sledgehammer) so there's not gonna be anything that a firefighter's gonna need to pry that he couldn't get done with that combo.

Have you ever had a knife that failed because of the heat?
Nope, but my guess is that if a knife of decent quality fails from heat, the person carrying it would'nt be in any condition to use it!! (The heat would've rendered him/her unconscious or more)

What would be the ideal firemans knife?
Remember what I said about there being hardly any need to cut seatbelts, pry things or bust windows?
(I didn't say anything about busting windows, but pretend I did)
Well, forget I said it.
smile.gif

If you wanna make a knife that'll sell to a firefighter..... lemme rephrase that.
If you wanna make a knife that would sell to ME as a firefighter, make one with a seatbelt cutting option (kinda like a guthook, ya know?) a flat tip, a serrated age.. NASTILY serrated...thick, 1/4" ideally, probably 6-8 inches long if that doesn't make it too heavy, and with a centerpunch option at the pommel.
How much use that's gonna get is anyone's guess, but I know that I sure as hell woulda bought something like that when I was on!

Okie dokie, I'm done.
I'm sure there's guy that've seen a lot more than I have, so if I'm wrong about something, just sum it up to the fact that I'm only a helpless undead rodent.... or just correct where I'm wrong, whatever the case may be, ad infinitum.

Hope that helps, Tom!

Rather proud that I stayed on topic that time, I remain,
VG - Playing with matches

------------------
Vampire Gerbil: Nosferatus Rodentus Moderatus; similar to a domestic gerbil, except for the odd accent and little black cape.
------------------
Odd Pictures at Photopoint
An assortment of pictures I decided to share with anyone that was so bored they wanted to check out my antics. I did this to prove that I am indeed sane. Be advised that there's hardly any nudity. Feel free to sign the Guestbook!!
Manifesto of Madness
I wrote most of that at work after drinking massive amounts of coffee. I needed to look busy and that dribbled out of my head. There's also a whole bunch of Optical Illusions.
The Deadly and Scary Leatherman Micra Website.
Be warned that the tactics used at that last site are not for the faint of heart!
A Ballistic Knife in Action
Even though the guy in those pictures has the same exact tattoos as me, I have no idea who he is!
------------------
vampiregerbil@aol.com

[This message has been edited by Vampire Gerbil (edited 08-01-2000).]
 
After going over these posts again,and reading ones from ff's who have never used a knife I got to ask are things that differant at your dept. ? During overhaul we remove all things burned includung carpets how do you remove a burned rug whitout a knife? We smash windows to vent heat, smoke and gases, when we leave we cover them with plastic or tarpaper do you always use a comercial board up company ? or do you leave them uncovered? What about a simple mattress fire, I don't care how much water you soak them with often they are still smoldering inside . So again we cut them open to get at that smoldering fire , if you don't you may end up back to the same address for "rubbish at the curb fire" These are pretty common uses I could think of many more, so when a brother ff.says he has never used a knife it seems rather odd how could you not use one? Well stay safe, and stay low.
 
Lone Hunter..... at the risk of embarrassing the hell outta myself and my former deparment, once it stopped burning, we were finished. Boarding up windows was someone else's job. (I was only a blackhat, so our firematic officers would know how to answer that better). On all structure fires that I went to, after the job was done, the police department would leave an officer on scene until the home/business was secured. Mattresses smoldered, yep, but we'd take them out whole. (Guess a K12 coulda worked, but I never saw that)

ANY ways, I guess our department wasn't as thorough as yours. We were vollys, if that makes a difference, but never were sent back to a scene for rubbish that had reignited. Maybe we were lucky, I dunno.
smile.gif

VG
 
Hey, Vampire Gerbil thanks for the reply. One thing I find most interesting is how things in the fire service are differant in various parts of the country. I don't know a thing about wild fires , and some areas have flash floods in "washes' that trap cars. Rural,urban,east,west, paid, volly we all do the job when the time comes. You sould get an award for reading my long post I have the worst spelling, grammer, and computer skills going.
 
Lone Hunter - "YOUR long post"?????
Heh heh.... I think I got ya beat on that account!
wink.gif


I know what you mean about the different aspects across the country. I was a volly in the NJ Mountains and we mostly dealt with residential/commercial fires as well as motor vehicle accidents, we did have our fair share of wildfires (we called them "brush fires", but it's the same thing.)
The first one I responded to gave me my first jolt of panic. Ya see, we didn't use SCBA for fighting them and I was doing my thing with a rake and shovel, when the wind shifted and all of a sudden, there was a severe lack of breathable air. Dropping to the ground didn't really help either. Just as I was getting a bit dizzy (and about to scream for my mommy) a guy from the Forest Fire service came along with an inch and a half a blew the smoke away.
Talk about a wakeup call!!!
lol
Anyway, I moved to Nevada about 5 months ago and haven't become involved in anything here. My town's a mixture of paid and volly, but to be honest, I can't honestly see myself working here. Two days ago it was 120 degrees outside, according to my outdoor thermometer (which is mounted in the shade) and the thought of wearing full turnout gear in that heat makes me think I'd last about 3 minutes.... and that's just STANDING in it, let alone WORKING!!
I was an EMT on my town's First Aid Squad and enjoyed that, so once I get settled, I may go that route. The heat'll still be there but in much shorter duration.
You mention flash floods, and that's now what has my attention. According to the locals, this is the start of the "monsoon season" and the main highway out of town has a nice little warning sign saying, "FLASH FLOOD AREA - NEXT 25 MILES".
As if I know what to do if my car starts floating towards the Pacific!
lol

I guess I'll find out more as time goes by.
Nice talkin' to ya!
VG
 
I carry A Gerber multi plier, BM 970, and a BM AFO while on duty. I must say, I use the Gerber more than I do the other knives, but I have cut seatbelts, wires, SEATS themselves, and a host of other things I cannot recall, with my other knives.I agree with including a seat belt cutter gizmo, as described earlier, mainly for safety reasons working around patients.(they tend to get nervous seeing a knife blade coming at them!!!)
As for keeping the knife from "melting" during a fire, that shouldn't be a problem, if its kept inside the turnout gear. I carry mine as anyone would, in sheaths on my belt,, and keep one in my turnout coat pocket. If I need the one on my belt, it CAN be a hassle to get to sometimes (especially when wearing the SCBA), but my knife use is mainly during EMS runs, which now makes up about 70% of the runs we go on.
Hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by CODE 3 (edited 08-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by CODE 3 (edited 08-03-2000).]
 
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