First Aid

Joined
Jan 6, 2001
Messages
42
I'm presently putting together a first aid kit to suppliment my survival gear. Anyone know of sources of individually packaged sutures? Perhaps that's the only way they come. Can't seem to find any source for them here in Cincinnati.
 
You might want to try your doctor. Mine not only gave me a few packs gratis, he showed me how to tie the knots.

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It's not the pace of life that concerns me, It's the sudden stop at the end.
 
I echo Mike's source. My dentist, a fishing partner, not only provided them but he also gave me small scalpel's (sealed and sanitized). I have two nurse friends who trade me needles (sealed) for Walleye(pickerel). They get them from manufacturer salesmen( samples). Perhaps the people who work at drug stores could provide additional sources.
 
I've tried the drug stores, pharmacies, medical supply stores, emt stores. Guess I'll try the Dr. routine, though don't hold much hope there. Guess I thought that might be illegal! Thanks for the input.
 
I just talked with a hopital administrator. He suggested that although the companies that make these medical supplies are very large, the DEMAND outside the medical community is not sufficient for them to justify stocking various stores around the country. That might be one reason why they are hard for fokes like us to locate them. Great answer on the web site though.

I agree 100% with Craigz about the training.
Question...Krazy Glue? Sounds like a good idea to close a wound in the wilderness. How does it work? Clean off the wound, apply alochol, placed wound edges together and apply the gule? For sure it will stick. I like to double-up on equipment/supply uses; that is, find dual uses for the same item. Krazy glue would seem to fit right in.
 
There's a medical glue called Dermabond that is becoming a popular tool for closing small wounds in Emergency departments. While you can get the real stuff from medical supply houses, you pay a lot of money for what is essentially sterilized Krazy Glue. The risk of infection with Krazy Glue is obviously greater than with Dermabond, but it's a good field expedient.

To use it, you clean the wound thoroughly and use the glue only to stick the skin together, closing the wound. Do not actually squirt the glue down into the wound, just touch a bit to the edges of the skin. Then dress the wound in the usual way. It's especially good in places where Steri-Strips would be awkward or pull off easily, such as lacerations across joints or between fingers.

Irrigating and clearing all foreign matter out of the wound is especially important here, however, because it's a semi-permanent closure, especially when you don't have acetone handy to dissolve the glue.

[This message has been edited by craigz (edited 03-29-2001).]
 

I did a search on ‘suture kit’ with yahoo and got several hits on suppliers, so you shouldn’t have any trouble buying them.

I have a book entitled ‘Wilderness Medicine: Beyond First Aid’ by William Forgey, MD. The book has a section on wound closures techniques. It has instructions and diagrams of the procedure for suturing a wound. The author recommends closing a wound with tape if possible. 2d choice is a skin stapler (search on ‘skin stapler’ for more info), and third choice under field conditions is using sutures.

Tape closure means butterfly bandages, steri-strips, or a product called Spyroflex. I searched on this and it can be bought from online sources.

Sutures require a needle holder, which is similar to a hemostat. Unless the victim is unconscious or has a really high pain threshold, you will also need a local anesthetic. This means a syringe and lidocaine, etc., and this means a prescription. Ice can be used to numb the area somewhat.

It’s a good idea to practice suturing. I read somewhere to practice on cheese. If you make the sutures too tight they will pull out, and the cheese gives you a good ‘feel’ for how much tension to put into the sutures. I’ve practiced this, but it was a long time ago. I thought about practicing on a cut of meat, but the cheese was cheaper. The suturing itself was pretty easy.

Another option is to close wounds with duct tape. I saw a tv program once about a teenager who was mauled by a brown bear while elk hunting. A doctor happened to be camping nearby and gave first aid. The doctor closed his gaping wounds temporarily with duct tape and gave him some pain meds, then drove him to the hospital.

The young hunter managed to kill the bear, by the way. The bear came out of the brush and knocked him down and mauled him, then walked off. The teen picked up his 7mm magnum rifle and killed the bear. I think he then fired all his ammo to attract attention, and this is what brought the doctor.

I carry steri strips (as well as other stuff of course) and duct tape in my kits. I leave the sutures at home, but I do have them. The sutures are definitely another option, and I don’t believe in limiting your options. I don’t mean to sound negative about sutures. Just keep in mind that using them can be fairly involved.

I am not a medical person, only an interested amateur, so I would appreciate any criticisms, comments or corrections. No hurt feelings here, for sure.


 
I seem to remember a previous discussion referencing wound closure in the wilderness. As I recall, the general concensus among the MD's involved was that you were better off not suturing ar gluing wounds closed in the wilderness due to the lack of sterile conditions and the increased risk of infection.

Something to think about.
 
Great answers people, thanks. I think I'll probably leave the suturing to the experts. I like the krazy glue method and think I've heard that elsewhere. I still want to get a couple packs of sutures just to have on hand. Never know when you'll run into a mad MD. out in the wilds
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I've already got the duct tape, med tape, wound closure strips and will be adding the glue. Hope I never have to use any of them
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Good point, Bill, about the need for an anesthetic. By the way, med students practice suturing on pig's feet. I saw a program on the health channel in which they showed a doctor in NY organizing a suturing clinic for students and going to a butcher to buy this huge bag of pig's feet.

I really like the books that give you the information on more advanced medical procedures, even when they strongly recommend that you don't use them, except under the most dire of circumstances. James Wilkerson's Medicine for Mountaineering, for example, has instructions for doing a thoracostomy to reinflate a collapsed lung, even though it's a very dangerous procedure to do in the field.
 
Craigz ...
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Dermabond that is becoming a popular tool for closing small wounds in Emergency departments. While you can get the real stuff from medical supply houses, you pay a lot of money for what is essentially sterilized Krazy Glue.
</font>

It is more than just sterilized. Glues give off HEAT while they cure. Krazy glue can generate enough heat to actually burn the skin you are trying to close around a wound. The Dermabond is not only sterilized, it is specially formulated to give off less heat so it does not burn the skin you are trying to treat.
 
Really! That's good to know, Matthew. Thanks. I found this on a web site:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Dermatologists are justifying their advice because Krazy Glue is comparable to a substance they use medically. Krazy Glue, or ethyl cyanoacrylate, is similar to a product called Dermabond that is used instead of sutures in dermatologic surgery, says Dr. James Spencer, director of dermatology at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City.

But Dermabond is a prescription product, distributed by Johnson & Johnson Co. division Ethicon Inc., of Sommerville, N.J., and costs about $20 an ounce. Krazy Glue, available at most drug and hardware stores, sells for only $2 per ounce.

Spencer says he sees no problem with using Krazy Glue to seal small wounds - as long as it is applied with caution. He recommends patients dab a small spot of glue on top of the wound and then seal it closed with their fingers. But, both Gross and Spencer warn, some people may be allergic to the adhesive.

Regardless of the dermatologists' advice, Food and Drug Administration spokeswoman Sharon Snider warns the product is not approved for medical use. Elmer's Products, of Columbus, Ohio, agrees with the FDA, stating: "We do not advocate that the product be used for medical purposes." And company spokeswoman Terri Brown says Elmer's Products has no plans to pursue FDA approval for its skin adhesive properties.</font>

I looked around for real Dermabond, and the best price I could find was $75 for two tiny vials, so I think I'm gonna "stick" with the Krazy Glue.
 
If anybody's willing to put up with any more of my primitive stuff, here's a few tips that could make the difference in a true wilderness survival situation.

Antiseptic - boiled pine pitch
Glue - boiled pine pitch
Sealant - boiled pine pitch

Hey, an all-in-one ointment. How's that for dual purposes? While it clearly is not as good as the options provided by modern medicine, there is definite value in holding on to this for the "just in case." Might as well be prepared in case you lose your kit.
 
Coyotlviejo...sound good to me. Do you know, is one type of pine pitch better than another for the three purposes listed, or are they all about the same ? White pine,scrub pine, ponderosa pine,etc., etc.
 
I purchased my sutures from Sierra Supply. They carry lots of G.I. and commercial medical supplies, along with loads of other stuff that's good to go.
Sierra Supply
PO BOX 1390
Durango CO 81302
970-259-1822
 
FF- I have never really heard it discussed if one kind of pine is better than another, with the exception that Juniper seems to have more fame as an antiseptic. I think that if you're in an emergency situation you're more likely to want to grab the nearest pine, and figure out the genus later. But to experiment with on free time it would be a good thing to look into.

Interestingly enough, the cambrium layer of pine bark is also very stringy ("many parts of a pine tree are edible...") and could probably be used as a bandage or wrap. And it contains the sap you're looking for, so I guess that makes it premedicated!

cv
 
FF- I have never really heard it discussed if one kind of pine is better than another, with the exception that Juniper seems to have more fame as an antiseptic. I think that if you're in an emergency situation you're more likely to want to grab the nearest pine, and figure out the genus later. But to experiment with on free time it would be a good thing to look into.

Interestingly enough, the cambrium layer of pine bark is also very stringy ("many parts of a pine tree are edible...") and could probably be used as a bandage or wrap. And it contains the sap you're looking for, so I guess that makes it premedicated!

cv
 
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