First attempt at knife making - WIP/Hello Post

R

RabidTurkey

Joined
Dec 12, 2011
Messages
36
This is my first attempt at creating a knife it all started when I was listening to a podcast from Jack over at The Survival Podcast a couple of weeks ago where he was talking to a bladesmith that made a knife for him this peaked my interest in custom blades and with the help of Google I was lead here! With the great advice in the forums (particularly the post “How to instructions for making a knife” from bladsmth -awesome write up!! :cool:) I feel like I have a great headstart in avoiding some simple mistakes that a newbie would overlook of course I’m sure I’ll find out there is a lot of trial and error to go through while learning so I’ll be reading, researching and asking questions as I go!

sketch1.JPG


There are a ton of talented folks here and comments and critiques are sure welcome if you want to chime in. I’m going to pick up some metal today and get started shaping away so wish me luck!
 
Good luck! It is encouraging to hear that you are following the tutorials, a lot of work went into creating them. Now for a question, what is with the dip at the blade/handle junction? I would cut that pattern out of a paint stir stick from home depot and then glue on some temp scales to see if you really like the design. 10 minutes making a mock up will save steel and time in the end. Remember to have fun. Thats what is really all about..
 
Welcome, this place will teach you a lot if you let it.


I agree with Louis

Cut it out of cardboard, or paint sticks (they are free)

I would lower your point, whether with a drop or a clip
Have a look at the design section in the links below and use them to start drawing from.

I think the curve at the tip is too steep, lengthen out the curve a bit.

If you have a set of drafting french curves it can help.
http://www.amazon.com/Alvin-Co-FC88-FRENCH-CURVE/dp/B000HEQNFA


What metal are you picking up today?
Is this just for practice, or do you know what kind of steel it is?


Maybe you have seen this, maybe you haven't ?



I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions on how to make a knife. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V22

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V22 Dec 1, 2011.

Countavatar.jpg
 
Welcome,

You are gonna have a lot of fun working on that knife.

You might want to drawn a line down the center of your pattern from end to end and visualize how you are going to use it and see if you really want your tip so high above the center line.

The good thing about a custom knife is you get to make it the way you want. But as others have recommended it is good to make it out of cardboard or paint stick first. ;)
 
rocketmann said:
Good luck! It is encouraging to hear that you are following the tutorials, a lot of work went into creating them. Now for a question, what is with the dip at the blade/handle junction? I would cut that pattern out of a paint stir stick from home depot and then glue on some temp scales to see if you really like the design. 10 minutes making a mock up will save steel and time in the end. Remember to have fun. Thats what is really all about..
Click to expand...

12345678910 said:
Welcome, this place will teach you a lot if you let it.


I agree with Louis

Cut it out of cardboard, or paint sticks (they are free)

I would lower your point, whether with a drop or a clip
Have a look at the design section in the links below and use them to start drawing from.

I think the curve at the tip is too steep, lengthen out the curve a bit.

If you have a set of drafting french curves it can help.
http://www.amazon.com/Alvin-Co-FC88-FRENCH-CURVE/dp/B000HEQNFA


What metal are you picking up today?
Is this just for practice, or do you know what kind of steel it is?


Maybe you have seen this, maybe you haven't ?
Click to expand...

I had not seen that post...So much info WOW how did I miss it?! I have more reading to do!!

I was going to pick up some A2 it is available just down the road but I think I should do some more reading first. I wanted to try to do the hardening myself and I'm not sure what type of metal will work best in the kiln I have or even if I should attempt that portion? I would like to try but it sounds like some metals are more forgiving than others... this is sure alot to learn (in a good way!) so many different skills need to be learned and honed to do something that given a 30,000ft view looks easy it is amazing what it takes to get everything working together!!
As for the dip after the blade I did that for my thumb, the tip you guys gave on the paint sticks is awesome I'm going to mess around with that before cutting anything out and looking at the blade I'll play with it while doing the mock up as you can tell I kind of eyeballed the curves. Thanks for the advice this sure is starting out to be a fun project!
 
AVigil said:
Welcome,

You are gonna have a lot of fun working on that knife.

You might want to drawn a line down the center of your pattern from end to end and visualize how you are going to use it and see if you really want your tip so high above the center line.

The good thing about a custom knife is you get to make it the way you want. But as others have recommended it is good to make it out of cardboard or paint stick first. ;)
Click to expand...

Yep good advice on the center line, I'm not a designer and it is great to hear all the trick/tips others use. Thanks!
 
Here is the picture of the kiln btw, nothing as fancy as the ones I see guys on here using and I hear all the talk about the temp controllers and such so I'm not 100% sold that I'll get the desired results. May just have to try and see what happens but if anybody has a definite yes it will work or no way that would be great!

kiln1.jpg
 
If the kiln will hold a steady temp and is deep enough for the blade it will work fine.you will need some H/T foil to do air hardening steels.
Stan
 
Yes it will work. That model has what is referred to as an infinite switch, meaning that it cannot simply be set at your desired temp and it will do it for you. You will have to baby set it a bit to keep it where you want it. If you go with 1084 for your steel this will be ok due to the fact that 1084 does not require any special ramping of temps or a prolonged soak at the desired temp. As long as you Read the sticky's regarding heat treating 1084 you will produce a great knife.
 
rocketmann said:
Yes it will work. That model has what is referred to as an infinite switch, meaning that it cannot simply be set at your desired temp and it will do it for you. You will have to baby set it a bit to keep it where you want it. If you go with 1084 for your steel this will be ok due to the fact that 1084 does not require any special ramping of temps or a prolonged soak at the desired temp. As long as you Read the sticky's regarding heat treating 1084 you will produce a great knife.
Click to expand...

Sweet! I'll just have to make blades that deal with the depth then this is good news!
Just stopped by home depot and grabbed a handful of paint sticks to play with tonight I'll report back with a mock up.
 
Ok making a mockup was a game changer! Thanks for the paint stick idea! :thumbup:

OG pattern does not work, does not fit..etc!!

I took more time and AVigil's advice about making a center line to get everything in-line, as you can tell I totally revamped all the curves and with it everything feels much more natural in my hand. I see what was mentioned about the tip angles and think I am more ontrack with this version! Also top thumb notch is gone and handle is lengthened a bit to keep my thumb on the scales and not the blade.

Although it looks way different I am still happy with it I would like to tweak the butt for aesthetics and with the mock up scales I can see where I'll need to contour for fingers. I don't have the french curves but I want a set! All these curves were done with various items on hand..

New Layout..

sketch2.JPG


With Scales..

sketch3.JPG
 
Looks like a solid bush crafter.
I like your design.
You might want to consider a thong hole. Or leave it if you have no use for it :)
 
Welcome to the BF.

I like the current design. Good start.

As for steel, A-2 will make a fine knife, but the detailed HT is not worth the effort, IMHO. If you are going to all that trouble, using a stainless steel like CPM-154 would be just as easy. My recommendation for a first knife would be 1084. A four foot bar from Aldo is less than $25 including shipping.

That burnout kiln will work, but is only good for carbon steels, as it won't do stainless temps ( I know the dial goes that high, but my car speedometer has 120MPH on it ,too.). A-2 has a HT somewhere between the two, but that oven isn't really a good choice for the ramp and soak of A-2........best stick with 5160 or 1084, or send it out for HT. As for the quenchant, a couple gallons of canola oil will work fine for those steels.

As for using a centerline. Many new makers have a lot of trouble getting the blade edge and tip looking right. Your first drawing is typical of this problem. By drawing a line down the center of the sketch, you will see the relationship of all parts much better. Your second pattern is miles ahead of the first. The paint stick mock-up is also a super good idea.

Kudos to you for reading and asking questions before you start on steel. I predict a good knife will come from your first effort.
 
Just ordered some 1084 in 3/16" from Aldo!
While I wait for it to get here I'm going to play around on some scrap that is laying around to get a feel for what to expect and spend some time reading over the HT info but holy moly that info looks overwhelming!
 
RabidTurkey said:
Just ordered some 1084 in 3/16" from Aldo!
While I wait for it to get here I'm going to play around on some scrap that is laying around to get a feel for what to expect and spend some time reading over the HT info but holy moly that info looks overwhelming!
Click to expand...

I ordered some today and have been trying the same. If you figure it out let me know.
 
Wood mock looks very good so far.
I am awfully new at this, but the one piece of adivce I will give you is to take your time, especially with any power equipment.
Once metal is gone, it's gone. I have a couple 3.75" blades that were supposed to be 4" ones !!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top