First EP Sharpening, need constructive criticism and advice

[mrdabble]

So I actually had the time to use the EP to its full extent today...I got result better than expected but very apparently not near what looks good.
I need to steady my knife holding hand more judging by the unevenness of bevel, is there any tips that could be given?

I am pretty novice when it comes to sharpening so I am open to all tips tricks and articles that would help me in the future.
Any other tips or criticisms in general please and thanks.

Another thing is that as I worked towards the top as well as a slight bit of the heel I was having trouble getting all the way to the very apex (that's what the edge or fulcrum is called, yes?)
I've seen threads about this before and I used a permanent marker to gauge it and the stones are flat I suppose steadying the holding hand would yield better results here also? I was doing everything I could to get it but I suppose it just didn't get profiled low enough from the factory edge to hit it. Am I somewhat in the ballpark with that reasoning?

I've got quite a bit of super steel and this blade was 154 cm so I know I have quite a bit of practice ahead of me before I can sufficiently sharpen the harder steels.

If practice is all it takes that's just fine, I'm only looking for your expert opinions and knowledge. I know with lots of practice my technique will improve greatly, I just hope to nip any issues in the bud now and hopefully gain some useful tips as to one day master sharpening on this machine and eventually freehand, too.

These pictures aren't the best but to get a good one of the bit isn't that easy...
I used 400, 600, 1000 and 2000 and 3000 polishing tape. I actually didn't realize the slide you put the tape on, one had a bit of a burr and it bit through the 3000 tape towards the end scratching it a bit but I stopped at that point since it was pretty well polished, and I know the polishing doesn't do anything for the edge anyway.

 

[Sadden]

Well , theres lots we can talk about looking at these pictures.

The first picture in particular is interesting to me , we can see some damage up near the tip , along with a secondary bevel , to me this looks like you were not to the edge of the edge in this area. Or you were rocking the knife slightly while holding it on the blade table. Looking at the rest of the pictures im leaning towards the second option.

In regards to the hollow spot near the heel this is not an uncommon problem with many knives today. Its a slight grind issue in the manufacturing process. Im not sure what causes it , but I see it all the time. In order to fully remove that you would have to bottom out that hollow and take away the require material along the entire length of the blade.

If you were resting the knife on the flats I would either switch to holding it on the bevel , or building a shim on the blade table to support it underneath the bevel.

Whether or not the polish tapes do anything depends as to whether or not the knife is properly sharpened before moving on to them , and whether or not your holding the knife consistently and getting to the edge of the edge.

If your going to be dealing with lots of high vanadium / abrasion resistant steels , you will save yourself much time and agony by upgrading to some diamond films.

 

[SteelStickler]

It's all about constancy; being able to hit the bevel in exactly (or as exactly as possible) the same place.

As Sadden mentioned, you need to be able to stabilize the blade on the blade table. Using shims or compensating for the angle change when resting on the second bevel are great ways to take the variance out of the situation.

Make sure you are setting the blade up to be as perpendicular to the stone-arm as possible. This will avoid making the angle of incidence between the stone and the edge change so drastically that it creates such an uneven bevel. For instance, instead of resting the blade of a paramilitary 2 on the table with the spine fully flush with the back stop (word eludes me right now) and therefore have the bevel start perpendicular from the stone and then curving hard away, I would set it up so only the top of the opening hole was touching it, making the bevel as evenly perpendicular as possible without having to shift the blade in order to execute my stone-stroke. This greatly improved my results.

Keeping the blade still and positioning the blade correctly go a long way towards getting the fabulous results that are possible with the EP. Hope this helps.

 

[Bob6794]

Try to take in all the advice already given and get in some practice on some cheap blades you don't care about. Cheap kitchen knives are a good source, you can even pick one up for a few dollars if you don't have a blade your willing to practice on. Something that is softer and easier to grind away metal would be my preference than using wear resistant metals to practice on so you get your results faster and don't wear down your stones as much every time you want to practice sharpening a blade once or twice.

 

[mrdabble]

Well , theres lots we can talk about looking at these pictures.

The first picture in particular is interesting to me , we can see some damage up near the tip , along with a secondary bevel , to me this looks like you were not to the edge of the edge in this area. Or you were rocking the knife slightly while holding it on the blade table. Looking at the rest of the pictures im leaning towards the second option.

In regards to the hollow spot near the heel this is not an uncommon problem with many knives today. Its a slight grind issue in the manufacturing process. Im not sure what causes it , but I see it all the time. In order to fully remove that you would have to bottom out that hollow and take away the require material along the entire length of the blade.

If you were resting the knife on the flats I would either switch to holding it on the bevel , or building a shim on the blade table to support it underneath the bevel.

Whether or not the polish tapes do anything depends as to whether or not the knife is properly sharpened before moving on to them , and whether or not your holding the knife consistently and getting to the edge of the edge.

If your going to be dealing with lots of high vanadium / abrasion resistant steels , you will save yourself much time and agony by upgrading to some diamond films.

It's all about constancy; being able to hit the bevel in exactly (or as exactly as possible) the same place.

As Sadden mentioned, you need to be able to stabilize the blade on the blade table. Using shims or compensating for the angle change when resting on the second bevel are great ways to take the variance out of the situation.

Make sure you are setting the blade up to be as perpendicular to the stone-arm as possible. This will avoid making the angle of incidence between the stone and the edge change so drastically that it creates such an uneven bevel. For instance, instead of resting the blade of a paramilitary 2 on the table with the spine fully flush with the back stop (word eludes me right now) and therefore have the bevel start perpendicular from the stone and then curving hard away, I would set it up so only the top of the opening hole was touching it, making the bevel as evenly perpendicular as possible without having to shift the blade in order to execute my stone-stroke. This greatly improved my results.

Keeping the blade still and positioning the blade correctly go a long way towards getting the fabulous results that are possible with the EP. Hope this helps.

Yes my hand was definitely rocking somewhat and more as there was less blade on the table, I suppose only practice will fix that.

As far as using shims, I now realize that I was holding it to the flat of the blade and not the bevel, which explains the slight secondary bevel at the tip because overall I didn't take off enough material to hit that spot since I was doing it wrong in the first place, am I understanding this right? I had thought of that but the design of the machine made me think I was doing it correctly....so technically if I were to continue in the fashion I would eventually end up with a Scandinavian grind correct? Sorry if I ask so many questions but it is how I learn best aside from hands on practice which is up to me to do.

I could rest the shim below the knife guide and zero the angle cube on it to gauge my angle then? I know I won't have to worry about that much until I've honed my skill but it helps me to understand a bit more.

I'd also like to thank you guys for your answers...exactly what I was looking for I didn't want to be shot down but use my mistakes to learn, and you've all done exactly that.

 

[mrdabble]

Try to take in all the advice already given and get in some practice on some cheap blades you don't care about. Cheap kitchen knives are a good source, you can even pick one up for a few dollars if you don't have a blade your willing to practice on. Something that is softer and easier to grind away metal would be my preference than using wear resistant metals to practice on so you get your results faster and don't wear down your stones as much every time you want to practice sharpening a blade once or twice.

I've got a cheap folder down there as well to practice on I've kinda deemed this Grip a practice blade and a beater...I kinda regretted getting the combo edge and it's a softer steel and I figure there is less blade to sharpen so it won't wear away the stones as much as well since you pointed that out (great point lol)

 

[mrdabble]

If your going to be dealing with lots of high vanadium / abrasion resistant steels , you will save yourself much time and agony by upgrading to some diamond films.

Diamond films? Please elaborate if you would I have no idea what that is, but I will be dealing with steels as such once my skills have gotten better.

I've got a business trip all next week and after working hours the guys will probably be going out for drinks...I've since sobered up so I think I'll be spending the excess time with my EP your advice will be used sooner than later gents

 

[SteelStickler]

Yes my hand was definitely rocking somewhat and more as there was less blade on the table, I suppose only practice will fix that.

As far as using shims, I now realize that I was holding it to the flat of the blade and not the bevel, which explains the slight secondary bevel at the tip because overall I didn't take off enough material to hit that spot since I was doing it wrong in the first place, am I understanding this right? I had thought of that but the design of the machine made me think I was doing it correctly....so technically if I were to continue in the fashion I would eventually end up with a Scandinavian grind correct? Sorry if I ask so many questions but it is how I learn best aside from hands on practice which is up to me to do.

I could rest the shim below the knife guide and zero the angle cube on it to gauge my angle then? I know I won't have to worry about that much until I've honed my skill but it helps me to understand a bit more.

I'd also like to thank you guys for your answers...exactly what I was looking for I didn't want to be shot down but use my mistakes to learn, and you've all done exactly that.

First off, you're most welcome. What good are forums if they don't offer interactive help and critique?

In reference to your last question about the shims/angle cube, I would first see if using the secondary bevel improves your stability. I'd be more inclined to figure out what kind of wedge you'd need to make the blade stable when on the flat of the blade, taking out the need to calculate and compensate for the difference in the angle of incidence of the stone arm. If you do find that using the secondary bevel allows you to keep the blade from moving, you'd just need to put the angle cube on the blade when its flat, zero, and then tilt it onto the secondary bevel to figure out the amount of degrees that you'd need to add to your angle. So if the secondary bevel is 10 degrees, you'd set the arm to 30 if you wanted a 20 degree bevel.

Next, in reference to the bolded text, I think you're missing this one a bit. Basically, if I understand this correctly from my usage, the unevenness in the bevel results from having the tip of the bevel edge significantly closer/further from the pillar of the stone arm than the heel, or vice-versa. So when you're setting the blade up on the table and figuring out where you're going to put it, you want to make sure that the curve of the bevel edge is equidistant from the pillar that holds the stone arm. That way, the angle wont distort significantly as the stone moves down the blade. I would guess that you set up the blade with the spine snug up against the blade-stop? That would make the bevel next to the serrations furthest from the arm, and the tip closer and at an oblique (non-90 degree angle) such that the amount of metal ground would be more on the tip than the heel.

Think of the pillar as being a dot at the center of a circle, and then try and position the blade so the bevel you want to grind would be a part of that circle.

Obviously because you've ground an uneven bevel you'll have some work to make it even again, so it might be better as has been suggested to grab a cheap blade that has an even bevel already to reinforce the principles I've tried to explain. They'll be easier to grasp without trying to correct a mistake, and once you've got the theory down you can go back to the griptillian and work on evening it up.

All the best,
Turner

 

[mrdabble]

First off, you're most welcome. What good are forums if they don't offer interactive help and critique?

In reference to your last question about the shims/angle cube, I would first see if using the secondary bevel improves your stability. I'd be more inclined to figure out what kind of wedge you'd need to make the blade stable when on the flat of the blade, taking out the need to calculate and compensate for the difference in the angle of incidence of the stone arm. If you do find that using the secondary bevel allows you to keep the blade from moving, you'd just need to put the angle cube on the blade when its flat, zero, and then tilt it onto the secondary bevel to figure out the amount of degrees that you'd need to add to your angle. So if the secondary bevel is 10 degrees, you'd set the arm to 30 if you wanted a 20 degree bevel.

Next, in reference to the bolded text, I think you're missing this one a bit. Basically, if I understand this correctly from my usage, the unevenness in the bevel results from having the tip of the bevel edge significantly closer/further from the pillar of the stone arm than the heel, or vice-versa. So when you're setting the blade up on the table and figuring out where you're going to put it, you want to make sure that the curve of the bevel edge is equidistant from the pillar that holds the stone arm. That way, the angle wont distort significantly as the stone moves down the blade. I would guess that you set up the blade with the spine snug up against the blade-stop? That would make the bevel next to the serrations furthest from the arm, and the tip closer and at an oblique (non-90 degree angle) such that the amount of metal ground would be more on the tip than the heel.

Think of the pillar as being a dot at the center of a circle, and then try and position the blade so the bevel you want to grind would be a part of that circle.

Obviously because you've ground an uneven bevel you'll have some work to make it even again, so it might be better as has been suggested to grab a cheap blade that has an even bevel already to reinforce the principles I've tried to explain. They'll be easier to grasp without trying to correct a mistake, and once you've got the theory down you can go back to the griptillian and work on evening it up.

All the best,
Turner

Ok in reference to the second part referring to the bold statement in the quote, I would start with the blade against the blade stop but moved the blade as I worked toward the tip, keeping the stone in generally the same area so that when I was working on the tip my holding hand had moved away from me, as to keep the part I was working on perpendicular with the blade stop, I'm pretty sure I was doing that right, correct me if I'm wrong. Or is the knife supposed to stay in the same place throughout the sharpening?

In reference to the first part, my big change would be tilting the knife so that I'm working on the bevel and keeping it there, not removing material and evening the bevel with the flat like I have done to the grip, yes? And the purpose of the shim will be to compensate for the space between the table and the flat since it will be tilted and probably even more difficult to keep steady right?

 

[Sadden]

See the video Ben Dale does regarding the shims , I think it help you better understand what we are trying to say.

Heres a link to the Diamond films , I strongly recommend the HD versions , they are also available in 70u , 45u and 30u although not listed here. Just email and ask for them.
http://www.jendeindustries.com/prod...roduct/173-1x6-diamond-films-for-the-edge-pro

 

[SteelStickler]

Generally, the more consistent, the better. With larger knives (over 3-4"), you simply can't hit the whole blade without moving it, and so you work the edge in 4" (ish) segments and then do some full-bevel sweeps to smooth out the scratch pattern once a burr has been developed. With your Grip, seeing as it's only maybe 2" of bevel, you don't need to move the blade in order to hit it all and are better served by putting it in one place that is *most* even and straight as opposed to moving the blade around the table in an attempt to keep the edge perpendicular to the arm. Basically, its such a short stroke that you shouldn't have to move the blade at all, just set it up correctly.

Someone else jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but this was the way I achieved the best results with my EP.

While I don't necessarily think its the best method, I would use a piece of painters tape rolled back on itself to support the full flat grind of my PM2's when I was sharpening to help keep the blade from tipping under the pressure of the arm and also to help keep it in one place while sharpening. I'm sure shims are better, but it hopefully explains why to use a shim - to keep the blade stable!

Best of luck.

 

[cbwx34]

Here's a tip from EP's website, that I agree with. If the knife is not flexible (and not tooooo long), there's no need to move it.

If you are sharpening a flexible blade, move the knife across the machine as you sharpen. If you are sharpening a stiff blade, put the knife across the machine and sharpen the whole blade without moving the knife. This will give you perfect tracking and a slight angle gain at the tip, which helps minimize the wide bevel that develops at the end of the knife. The wide bevel develops because as you get closer to the tip, the edge of the knife moves in to a thicker part of the blade.

http://www.edgeproinc.com/Sharpening-Tips.html#tip-important

With a bit of practice, you can find the knife's "sweet spot" that will allow you to sharpen it without moving it around. Marking with a Sharpie and noting where metal is removed will help.

After you do a couple of knives, I would also go back and watch the Edge Pro Videos. I think you'll find a lot of tips and hints that you may not have noticed prior to actually sharpening a knife or two.

 

[mrdabble]

Thanks fellas. I'm feeling more confident already, no time tonight but after we get done tomorrow I'm gonna bust it out and sharpen one or both of the cheapies I brought with and I will post results!!!

 

[SteelStickler]

Definitely +1 on the sharpie method, makes a huge difference in understanding where you're contacting the blade.

 

[mrdabble]

Here are some photos of my second sharpening on the grip.
Note that I didn't remove material to fix the tip so behind the part that I reprofiled is still part of the awkward grind.
It still isn't perfect but I didn't use the tapes this time but DID strop it after the 1000, I am much more pleased with the results. It was harder to take pics this time, I hope because of the better consistency.

Still though, when I reach the tip of the blade my angle seemed to faulter a bit sometimes, there isn't much flat on the grip to work with so keeping it steady was still a challenge, as is always with the EP. Will remove thumbstud next time to get the best possible finish.

Constructive criticism is still welcome I fully understand resting on the flats now though and the concept of compensating for the angle if resting on the bevel, that was my first big mistake. Now I'm pretty sure the results I seek can be achieved through practice, but I want to thank those that helped me get this far. I'm a lot closer to a fine edge than I ever was!