First Knife Buildalong... and Questions

[CanDo]

Hello! I've been registered here for a long while, but haven't had the chance to start up a project. Well now I have the time . I'm making this thread for two reasons: So that my questions don't spill all over the place - those of you who wish to, may entirely ignore my questions by not even clicking on this thread. And secondly, so that when finished, this may serve as a guide for fellow beginners (at very least, it will give what NOT to do !) It will have plenty of pictures as I go along.

So, last week I picked up a 20.5" Lawn mower blade that's just over 1/8" (not quite 3/16) thick and 2.25" wide. It has a coat of rust, which should be no problem for some of my powertools. From what I've read, mower blades are made of 5160 or 1085 steel which are at least OK for largish knives. I figure that while it probably isn't exactly one of the two, the properties will be similar enough (please correct me if I'm wrong!). Well, I can see a knife with a 6-7" blade with a 'bowie' look hiding in there.
I plan on helping it out of there through stock removal, as I have a large enough assortment of tools, many of which are electric. That shouldn't provide too large of a problem since I have enough experience in that department (cleaning up welds, making prytools, lockpicks etc.).

My first plea is for how to anneal this steel. I do not have a forge, and don't have the resources required to make one large enough to treat the whole blade. I do however, have access to a propane/mapp blowtorch, bricks, new england dirt, sand, cans, grill, charcoal, safe experimenting area, and any sort of readily available 'junk' that I could pick up for free.

I just made a 'furnace' out of loose bricks. It's interior is 18" long and a few inches high by a few inches wide. I was planning on inserting the propane torch in the gap between two of these bricks in the middle, and praying that the heat reflects, though I still wouldn't be able to heat up the mower blade all at once.

So, should I continue to bother with this sort of setup?
Can the steel be heated one-part-at-a-time for the annealing process? That is, could I wait for one part to reach non-magnetic then gradually move the heat down the blade? Some of the metal would be still be heating as other parts are still cooling, so I don't know if this will successfully anneal the steel, or if it could hurt it. (From what I've read, steel can just be 'reset' by heating whenever necessary, but this seems too idealistic, and I wonder if there are practical limitations on this.)
Do charcoal briquettes get hot enough to anneal/reharden steel (no forging or welding of course)? If so, any tips on how to go about this?

Thanks guys,
If it's possible for me to move past the annealing, I'll get up a lot of pics of what I'll be doing, that could help future bladesmiths. Do it for them!

 

[bartblade]

if you have an angle grinder u can cut it out with out annealing. once u have it cut to profile you can anneal it. if i was you i would use the barbique grill. you could fill with dirt bout 1/2 full drill a hole in 1 corner and shove a fluted pipe with the end that is going in capped. leave a foot or so hanging out, and find an old vacume that blows out and attach the hose to the pipe somehow ie duct tape. now you could use charcoal or better if you have access burn some wood and when you get it to embers put the fire out and use a window screen and wash the embers let dry. then you have your homemade charcoal which is choice for forging. after you fire up the forge you'll want to let it get to a nice glow bout like when you would through on some steaks and then turn on the blowing vacume and ramp the temp up. after about 15 minutes or so turn it off and put your blade in and turn it back on. have a magnet handy and when you think you might be up to temp test and let it air cool to anneal it.

hope this helps!!! there are better ways to do it but this is about the cheapest!!

 

[polish avenger]

Welcome, CanDo! Could you tell us where you're located? Maybe someone in your area could give you a hand.
-Mark

 

[CanDo]

Bartblade,
Thanks for the ideas. I don't have an angle grinder, but I'm looking to see if there's anyway to hook up my Dewalt Cut-Out tool with 4 or 4.5" grinding/cut-off wheels. It dosn't look promising .
It would be nice If I could find a way to cut down the steel before annealing, the problem is that there is so much of it, I don't want to destory my tools on hard steel.

Using store bought briquettes would be awesome, but I'm not very confident in their ability to heat up thick metal. Maybe I'll get a chance to experiment.

Mark,
I'd love to meet some of you guys, but my parents (ok, my mother) is paranoid of 'internet people' and I don't want to imagine what she'd think of "internet, knife people".


So tenative plan: Cut out a more manageable chunk from the steel, anneal, cut out profile.

Any more input on how to get this annealed would be GREATLY appreciated, thanks for the help.

 

[master_of_blades]

I'd love to meet some of you guys, but my parents (ok, my mother) is paranoid of 'internet people'

i know how that goes but the briquettess wont put out the heat need to reach crit temp to be able to anneal id say you wold have better luck with the grill filled with dirt and a pipe and air supply (its how my forge is set up ) but good luck with the blade:thumbup:

 

[deker]

Bartblade,
Mark,
I'd love to meet some of you guys, but my parents (ok, my mother) is paranoid of 'internet people' and I don't want to imagine what she'd think of "internet, knife people".

Just a suggestion on finding some local help that may be more acceptable to the parental units (if you're interested in forging as well as stock removal)...Check the ABANA website and see if there are any affiliates in your area. ABANA is a very large and established organization and just about any affiliate group would likely encourage Mom to come along to a meeting. Blacksmiths are generally some of the most friendly, helpful, family orienented people you'll ever find and make pretty good ambassadors for traditional metalworking. Another thing that you may be able to find through a blacksmith guild would be a knifemaking class (my guild has at least one every year).

All of that being said, there's a lot you can learn from folks here as well as a few good books. See if you can get a copy of Wayne Goddard's "$50 Knife Shop" and "Wonder of Knifemaking" books. They're chock full of great info and can gelp you get rolling in short order.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

-d

 

[Dan Gray]

So, last week I picked up a 20.5" Lawn mower blade that's just over 1/8" (not quite 3/16) thick and 2.25" wide.

My first plea is for how to anneal this steel. I do not have a forge, and don't have the resources required to make one large enough to treat the whole blade. I do however, have access to a propane/mapp blowtorch, bricks, new england dirt, sand, cans, grill, charcoal, safe experimenting area, and any sort of readily available 'junk' that I could pick up for free.

I just made a 'furnace' out of loose bricks. It's interior is 18" long and a few inches high by a few inches wide. I was planning on inserting the propane torch in the gap between two of these bricks in the middle, and praying that the heat reflects, though I still wouldn't be able to heat up the mower blade all at once.

So, should I continue to bother with this sort of setup?
Can the steel be heated one-part-at-a-time for the annealing process? That is, could I wait for one part to reach non-magnetic then gradually move the heat down the blade? Some of the metal would be still be heating as other parts are still cooling, so I don't know if this will successfully anneal the steel, or if it could hurt it. (From what I've read, steel can just be 'reset' by heating whenever necessary, but this seems too idealistic, and I wonder if there are practical limitations on this.)
Do charcoal briquettes get hot enough to anneal/reharden steel (no forging or welding of course)? If so, any tips on how to go about this?

Cando
if you are lucky you may have a piece of reasonable steel there but most of the cheaper mower blades are of a low grade steel and the manufactures make them to heat treat as simple as possible, this said , meaning that they don't have to worry if it's over hard so it can't brake, low carbon..
yes you could have some 1085 or 5160 on some of the better blades
but do you know what you have ? sure hate to see you waste your time on a junk piece of steel..
go here for some info,
http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/jnkstee1.jpg

you'll see mower blades, but that could mean blades from expensive equipment, like reel mowers and such..
and here for some good info
http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/junkyard_steel.htm

it's mentioned here that
charcoal does not create enough heat, yes it can and up to welding heat BUT the type of Charcoal and your setup will make the difference
first use soft wood charcoal,( Bruce Evans is doing it, and I'm in the works)
you can make your own..charcoal and forge very easy,
a barrel and some odds and ends for the charcoal maker, and a truck rim, dirt and a blower of a sort for the forge.
go here
http://www.lindsaybks.com/ord/index.html
and order their paper back book from this book you can order
many books on the old ways of doing things cheap..you'll pat your self on the back for doing it, on my first order I bought I think 10 books, some awesome stuff..the prices are not bad either,,
hope this helps..

 

[JCaswell]

Geeez ... why not just buy a piece of quality steel.
I agree with Dan that, more likely than not, you have marginal-or-worse steel inthat blade. Plus, if you don't know what it is for sure, you won't be able to get the most out of heat treatment, and that's important for a knife.

To me, it's just not worth wasting your time cutting and grinding something that might be junk when you can get a piece of known, good blade steel for just a few buck.

 

[Dan Gray]

if you are bent on using it..you can take a piece of it as a test piece
heat and quench it at a ~ temp of 1550F soak for 10-15 minutes and then start at a low tempering heat and test it for edge flex and keep tempering at a higher temp to figure out the right tempering heat for it, but you are starting a disadvantage without knowing your quench heat..and your steel, and by starting out new in the first place. but you can have fun with it trying it out..
I don't have that kynd of time , but I'd say, you'll get some hard hands on experience at least..

 

[CanDo]

deker,
Thanks for the link to the ABANA, I'm definitely going to check them out. I'm actually far more interested in forging than stock removal, but as you can tell, I have a few problems to work through before getting to that. I find that people who make things in general, whether it be furniture, flintlocks, or primitive weapons are great people, and I'd expect the same from bladesmiths.

Dan Gray,
I'm sad to hear that the mower blade is probably junk, but that really does make the most sense. I uncovered the model number and it happens to be a 672089 Murray Blade, looks like they don't make them anymore. I can't find any information on the type of steel, but since they're selling for $16 I imagine it's no good for knives. The sites you mentioned are actually among the ones that I originally used to determine the steel was 1085 or 5160. Maybe not for this project, but I'll definitely experiment with charcoal eventually
I like the idea, of taking a test strip. Do you have any suggestions on actual things I could do to determine it's hardenability/springiness? I have basic tools which may be helpful for that sort of thing: dremel and basic cut off wheels, files, clamps, hammers etc. (Without experience, I have almost zero intuition about steel, so need to follow fairly specific tests at first)

JCaswell,
I know, you're right. There's no logic or reason behind what I'm doing. But if there was, I would probably skip this whole process to begin with and just buy a nice knife. I'm just doing this to learn; If I end up with something niceish in the end, that will be a bonus. I have enough time to 'waste', and learn from everything I do. For example, my first bow was pretty much a stick, here is my second: http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=other;action=display;num=1148187907;start=
Moral being that any experience is good (within reason). Then I'll see about buying real steel in the future.

 

[CanDo]

Oh!
I meant to say, since this steel is probably junk, I'll make a throwing knife out of it.
From what I understand, throwing knives do not need to be, and indeed should not be hard since that makes them easier to break. They also shouldn't be sharp since that just makes them more likely to cut your hands open. Only real requirement is that they can hold their shape and withstand a beating. This should work pretty well.

This means that this 'buildalong' will actually be much much more boring and far less informative since much less skill will be required. I'll see what I can do though. I'll hopefully get down to home depot soon and see what I can pick up for cutting through this metal.

If you have any tips on throwing knives, or just anything that I should be aware of before I start hacking away, please let me know since I'm 80% sure that this is the way I'll be going

 

[son_of_bluegrass]

Might I suggust you check out used book stores for a good metallurgy book. I like "Metallurgy Theory and Practice" by Dell K. Allen. That will give you enough info to determine how to spark test the metal for an idea what it is and the why to how heat treat works.

As for forging check out "The New Edge of the Anvil" by Andrews and "A Blacksmithing Primer" (sorry forget the author). These are good books on general forging.

 

[JCaswell]

JCaswell,
I know, you're right. There's no logic or reason behind what I'm doing. But if there was, I would probably skip this whole process to begin with and just buy a nice knife. I'm just doing this to learn; If I end up with something niceish in the end, that will be a bonus. I have enough time to 'waste', and learn from everything I do. For example, my first bow was pretty much a stick, here is my second: http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=other;action=display;num=1148187907;start=
Moral being that any experience is good (within reason). Then I'll see about buying real steel in the future.

Fair enough!
Heaven knows I've been known I've done my share of experimenting.
Best of luck.

 

[Dan Gray]

deker,
Dan Gray,
I like the idea, of taking a test strip. Do you have any suggestions on actual things I could do to determine it's hardenability/springiness? I have basic tools which may be helpful for that sort of thing: dremel and basic cut off wheels, files, clamps, hammers etc. (Without experience, I have almost zero intuition about steel, so need to follow fairly specific tests at first)

.

fairly specific tests

first would be a Rockwell test on it..if you can't do that..

full quench it and use a new file on it and see if it cuts or skates on it, then try breaking it in a vise if it seems to be very hard then
edge flex and cut tests would be next
start tempering at a lower heats working your way up after each flex test
using a brass rod and rolling the edge on it checking if the edge flexs back, stays bent, or breaks?
if you get it where you think it should be do your cut tests...
..

 

[deker]

As for forging check out "The New Edge of the Anvil" by Andrews and "A Blacksmithing Primer" (sorry forget the author). These are good books on general forging.

Just FYI, "A Blacksmithing Primer" is by Randy McDaniel. Excellent 'smith. I'm actually taking a class from him in a couple weeks!

d-

 

[JTknives]

well i must say that i have used store bought briquettes and have been very happy with them. what i did was built a small steel box about the size of a shoe box and put a pipe on the bottom that had cuts in it to let air out. the pipe extended out the side of the box so i could atach a blower. the box also had a cut about 2" wide and 1/4 inch tall about halfway up from the bottom on one of the ends. i found that if i crushed up the store bought briquettes into like 4 smaller chunks i could get more heat. i would start the forge by using a propane torch through the cut on the end. after it was going i would turn on the blower and let her rip. after it got so hot the sides where red i knew it was reddy and i would push my blade into the forge through the small cut i made on the end of the forge. that worked sweet because i would get an even heat because the blade was in the center of the briquettes. I used this forge to heat treat my knives that i made out of the huge horse files. there was a time when i left the blade in to long and when i went to pull it out the blade was gone, it melted. i found it later as a pile of slag stuck to the bottom of the forge.