First report on waterstone finish

I

itrade

Joined
Jul 3, 2002
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All I know so far is that the 1000 grit waterstone does infact cut S30V fast, faster than SC paper, for me faster than a belt grinder.

A little further research and I found out that the grit rating system for waterstones is NOT the same CAMI (our 'normal' rating system). Here's a little table:

Waterstone - grit size (aprox)
320 - 280
1000 - 700
2000 - 1100
4000 - 1500 (about the same as green chrome)
8000 - 2000

So moving from a 2000 stone to an 8000 stone is only doubling the grit.

I bought the 1000 stone and the finish is not the same as 1000 paper. Then I found out that I was really using 700 equivalent - that looked about right. The finish also looks different. How can I explain it - more matt. The grit doesn't form the long lines you get with paper. And the line depth is very consistent with the stone.

The other thing I found out is my flats aren't as flat as I thought! I went from a 220 grit belt to the stone, and found divits. There is no question I can get a flatter surface off the stone. But still, imagine a 220 belt to 1000 grit waterstone (like 700 paper) and the 220 lines come off in a few minutes.

So I ordered a 320 waterstone to flatten the bevels and a 2000 stone to start the polish.

At this point I believe the combination 320, 1000, 2000 (which is like 280, 700, 1100 in paper terms) is going to work for a foundation. I might finish with paper, don't know yet.

Hope someone finds this helpful. I know if this does work I'll save a fortune in belts and time.

Steve
 
Steve, this is very interesting indeed. Please post updates as you learn more. Can I ask, where are you getting your waterstones from and exactly which ones are you using? This may be worth a try.

:)

-Darren
 
Darren,

Jump in! Please. However I can't promise anything since I've only started testing this idea myself (although Engnath used to sell stones for finishing).

I found these guys: http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/Professional-Series.php

The Japanese firm they represent takes man-made stones very seriously. When I asked about 8000 stones, they told me they've been reengineered and the new ones aren't in yet and they won't sell the old ones. Seem like straight shooters.

We talked for a long time about these stones. They don't understand knife making nor sword polishing for that matter. So, they can't discuss polishing in our terms. But they sure believe in their product.

If you'd like to wait until I get the next 2 stones, feel free. I'd hate to have you invest the $$ based on my first impressions. These things are $50+ a piece. The 30,000 grit is $600:eek: won't be trying that one.

But it you do join in please let me know.

Steve

Oh forgot - I'm using the 'Professional Series' I have the 1000 now and the 320, 2000 on order.
 
King stones have always been the name mentioned when I heard anyone talking about which waterstone to buy. Check some out at www.woodcraft.com , I got a 1000 grit stone approximately 1.5"X2"X8" for about $20 there a few years back. Not saying there's anything wrong with those other stones,just offering an alternative source that may be cheaper for experimenting.
 
Are you doing Hollow grinds Steve?and if so how are you using stones
to get in the bevel.I have not looked into the suject put would like to hear more about it?
 
Matt, according to the Shapton folks there is no comparison with the Kings stones, but that's from the guys who sell Shapton ;)

Nathan, without re-shaping the stones I don't think it's possible. Plus you would be hard pressed to maintain a curved stone - the flat ones need re-flattening often.

Steve
 
Some advice I got (but didn't follow :D ) for flattening the stones is to buy 2 of each grit and rub them together. I only have one 1000grit king waterstone, which is great, but not anything significantly better than my old oil stones for sharpening so I stuck with the routine I know. Plus its a pain to store the stone in water. Seems like that method done regularly would cause less wear on the stone than the diamond lapping plates or sandpaper method. And you don't risk grit contamination or gouging the stone in any way.
 
Steve
I thought you were flat grinding.I can see were a stone would work very good for flats and and bevels.it would keep every thing at a flat 90 degree.I will be interested in seeing some work done with the stones.They also would work very well for the flats even on a hollow ground blade.
 
Hi Steve,

Many thanks for the info. I'm definitely looking forward to your impressions once you get the other stones in and have a chance to put them through the test. :)

I've got some Norton 220/1000 and 4000/8000 waterstones as well as the Shapton 12000 waterstone that I use for honing straight razors. These are perfectly flat and I'd hate to risk them on a knife finishing experiment. I think I'll wait to hear your final impressions and then possibly order some specifically for this. Thanks again for posting this information, this is really interesting! :)

-Darren
 
Steve, I'd like to hear more also. When/where did the stone polishing influence come from. I love the approach. I'd really like to see a tutorial put together for this method. I'm a more visually centered learner. :rolleyes: :D ;)
 
Darren - you have all the stones already! Go for it.

More info:

There are a number of ways to keep them flat. The common one (I think and I'm using) is SC paper over glass.

The Shapton stones should not be kept in water and don't need to be pre-soaked. They are a bit different than natural stones.

I worked 2 blades some more last night. I really wanted to finish one, so I started in with the 1000. However, the bevels just weren't flat enough. Gad! you can see any imprefections in your grinding this way. I did work a ricasso area and really liked the results.


Jay:

The idea came from Crayola and reading about Japanese stones. Once, I complete a blade this way I'll put a tutorial with pics up on the web. (I hate to say tutorial like I know what I'm doing. Let's just say I'll show what I tried/learned.)

Steve

Disclaimer: This not something I invented, nor expert at. And for those that are good at the grinder, this probably isn't any value. However, the techology on waterstones has changed, and I think there a good probability that it will achieve an excellent handrubbed finish.
 
hey keep us posted
it may be interesting to put on the knife making site.
as a tutorial with the grit conversions too.
:)
 
the japs used these stones to finish the samurai swords. it is specialized one makes the sword. one does all the polishing. one fits the handle and tasuba/guard. one builds the scabbord.etc,
 
Darren,

That Don Fogg artical is exactly what I was looking for. Heck with all that great material I don't need to write a thing!

Thanks, that's excellent confirmation.

I'll be trying a few variations on that theme, and will let you know.

Steve
 
Originally posted by Darren Ellis
Hey Steve, check out the following article by Don Fogg:

http://www.dfoggknives.com/finishing.htm


hmm...EDM stones, this sounds interesting also...they're only about $8 a piece...possibly use for the lower grits?
Click to expand...

The cool thing about the EDM stones is that they exist in small sizes. They're available on MSC Direct.
 
Originally posted by Joss
The cool thing about the EDM stones is that they exist in small sizes. They're available on MSC Direct.
Click to expand...


Yeah, the brick red EDM polishing stones are available from MSC, in 180, 220, 320, 400, and 600 grit.

You can shape stones to fit a hollow grind. It's not the easiest thing, but it's possible.
 
Originally posted by Mike Hull
You can shape stones to fit a hollow grind. It's not the easiest thing, but it's possible.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

Now, that's a sweet idea! How well do the EDM stones wear? For my application, with very deep hollow grinds, this might be worth a try if they wear fairly well. Thanks for the info. :)

-Darren
 
Originally posted by Darren Ellis
Hi Mike,

Now, that's a sweet idea! How well do the EDM stones wear? For my application, with very deep hollow grinds, this might be worth a try if they wear fairly well. Thanks for the info. :)

-Darren
Click to expand...


I haven't used stones for 15 years, so I can't tell you what life to expect from them. I do know makers using the brick red EDM stones, and they speak very highly of them. Their finishes are as good as anything else.

I just find it easier to grind my blades to a higher finish, then use a rubbing block to match the hollow, and 3-M wet or dri paper.
As a final finish, I like to use Micro Mesh MX, I find it the finest abrasive for handrubbing that I have ever seen. :eek:
https://www.micro-surface.com/default.cfm?page_id=1
 
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