First time on the Edge Pro -- Help Needed (microscope pictures included).

OhioApexing

Sharpener
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
235
I decided to break the Edge Pro yesterday with an Ontario Rat 1 in AUS-8. It is my understanding that AUS-8 is easy to deal with and takes a good edge (might not hold it well, but that's another discussion).

By looking at the tip, I noticed that the grind on the Rat was uneven out of the box (it's a $25 knife). Probably not the best choice as the first knife to try out on a new system, but I went with it anyhow. Since they were uneven, I decided that 17 DPS (34 incl.) seemed like a nice middle-of-the-road angle to reprofile. I used the Small Knife Attachment so I could have the entire length of the edge exposed from the table.

To set my angle, I found the 17-degree mark (black) and added roughly a degree to account for the small knife attachment. I zeroed my angle cube on the primary ramp and then set it on the arm resting on the edge of the table (I managed to make this work) with a stone inserted. It read 17.4 degrees. I then placed the blade on the table as though I was going to be sharpening it and rested the stone on the blade. The cube read 17.0 and I went to work.

I used a Venev 150 to set the bevel, which almost immediately formed a full-length burr on one side. I flipped it and used a light edge-leading stroke to remove the burr, then set the bevel on that side. I formed a burr, removed it, and took pictures:

https://i.imgur.com/yCgsqFc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DaMSleP.jpg

Each side had fairly even bevels, with the exception of one side that was slightly wider toward the heel. Scratch patterns were clean, the edge was toothy, but that is probably to be expected coming off of a 100-micron diamond stone.

I started moving through a progression of Shapton Glass stones, beginning with 220 grit. I was removing scratch patterns from the last stone, blending the new ones, forming a burr on each side (trying to keep it as small as possible) removing the burr with light alternating edge-leading strokes, then moving stones. When changing each stone, I did the same steps with the angle cube as I did above, in addition to the drill stop collar.

Everything was fine until I hit the 500 Shapton. I noticed what seemed like a third/microbevel on one side. But ONLY on one side. I really don't know how it happened. I moved back to the 320 Shapton and worked to get rid of it, but alternated sides of the blade to keep things consistent. I finished there, and moved back to the 500 grit and things seemed fine.

I went up to the 1000 grit Shapton and it came back again. At this point, I was just sort of frustrated and said screw it, I'll keep going and see if it evens out. Throughout the next couple of stones, I noticed EACH of the bevels on that triple bevel side kept taking the scratches/polishing of the stone I had just used. So clearly, the stone contacted each of them. I have no idea how. Here's a couple of pictures:

https://i.imgur.com/Tjks6KU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qWRT8fD.jpg (close up, the secondary and third/micro bevels)

I finally got up to the 16k Shapton. The 8k Shapton was almost silently gliding across the edge. It felt like silk, almost no feedback. As soon as I made the first stroke with the 16k, it gave me fairly significant feedback, like I was grinding/cutting. I also felt an odd sensation, like I hit something I shouldn't have. I looked down and noticed that the (near) mirror I formed with the 8k now had significant cuts. Pictures:

https://i.imgur.com/wOgUQeX.jpg (edge after 8k Shapton)
https://i.imgur.com/mMCmxRh.jpg (edge after 16k Shapton)

I decided to take a close look at the edge, but couldn't see anything other than these inexplicable gashes that weren't there before. However, when I got to the very tip, I noticed that it looked almost like it had been burned. I can't explain this. You can also see the one of these deeper gashes. Pictures:

https://i.imgur.com/6NhL3Yf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Yb1DrpY.jpg

I decided that since the edge was obviously flawed, I wouldn't go further in stropping and waste any more of my time.

The edge that came up was sharp, but felt very brittle and thin (entirely subjective observation). It also "grabbed" when dragging the pad of my finger across the edge MUCH more on one side than the other.

ANYHOW:

Feel free to give me feedback about where you think I went wrong and how I can improve. Some of this was probably due to a really poorly ground knife, the rest was my error.

I noticed it was really hard to keep the knife consistently placed in the same position on the table... for as popular as this system is, it can't always be that loosy goosey, or can it?
 
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My thoughts.
(1) I wouldn't use the small knife attachment for Rat 1. Use a guide clip instead.
(2) I found that quite a few FFG blades are slightly convex. This could cause blade wiggling on the stage. But you should be able to find a stable position.
(3) Was the angle set on the blade for each stone? I don't see a benefit of using a collar in addition.
 
My thoughts.
(1) I wouldn't use the small knife attachment for Rat 1. Use a guide clip instead.
(2) I found that quite a few FFG blades are slightly convex. This could cause blade wiggling on the stage. But you should be able to find a stable position.
(3) Was the angle set on the blade for each stone? I don't see a benefit of using a collar in addition.

Thanks for the reply.

(1) I thought the Rat 1 was too small for the regular table, so clearly I need to revisit blade placement

(2) Are there any hard-and-fast rules/tricks for blade positioning? Holding the knife in the exact same position on each side over the course of a long sharpening session seems almost impossible. I've seen videos where people freely move the blade on the table and get consistent results and others that say you can't move the blade at all.

(3) I didn't set the angle cube on the blade, rather, I set the arm on the center of the blade (with a stone attached) and the cube on the arm. I did that between each stone. Probably not necessary, but I wanted to ensure I was using the collar right, especially after I got the triple bevel on one side.
 
I move a blade on the stage to check for a vertical play.
Then, try to find a sweet spot where I can set the blade position most securely.
Often, I need to apply slight upward pressure using my middle and ring fingers while pressing the edge side down with thumb.
But do not apply too much force either way.

I have had the multiple bevel issue mostly when I held a blade with my left hand (I'm righty).

Also, it might be helpful to have a long break between stones to rest hands and arms.
As they get tired, the pressure applied to the blade may become variable, so as the position.
 
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I move a blade on the stage to check for a vertical play.
Then, try to find a sweet spot where I can set the blade position most securely.
Often, I need to apply slight upward pressure using my middle and ring fingers while pressing the edge side down with thumb.
But do not apply too much force either way.

I have had the multiple bevel issue mostly when I held a blade with my left hand (I'm righty).

Also, it might be helpful to have a long break between stones to rest hands and arms.
As they get tired, the pressure applied to the blade may become variable, so as the position.

Yeah, this might be the issue, actually. The multi-bevel side was when I was holding the blade with my left (non-dominant) hand.

I also found myself hulk-gripping the blade, to the point where my index finger went numb due to contact with the pocket clip.
 
That was my issue initially.
In my case, I pushed the blade down too hard with my thumb, which reduced the sharpening angle.

Now I hold a knife with as much force as needed to hold a glass.
 
I don’t have a rat 1 but I just looked at some pics of the blade and think you picked a very difficult knife for your first attempt on an edge pro. It looks to me like the thumb stud would get in the way of trying to reference the unground portion of the blade stock to the platform. I imagine it would be very difficult to ensure the blade stays correctly referenced at all times. If you have a PM2 I’d suggest you try sharpening that to begin with as you can butt the handle up to the platform and use an index finger on the unground portion (the blade stock before the edge begins) to keep it flat to the platform in a more repeatable way and thus make sure the technique works. That way you can be sure 1) if you have any issues further down the line that it is most probably inconsistency of referencing the blade and 2) your collar / angle cube technique is accounting correctly for different stone thicknesses. I think these are really the only things that can give a triple bevel.

I only started using an edge pro in the last 6 months or so so I’ve been through all the frustrations relatively recently and can say I had a lot of help sorting things out by asking the gurus here. You will be amazed at how much more natural the process will feel, consistency at referencing the blade and sensitivity in determining feedback from the stones after using it 10 to 20 times. Best of luck!
 
OK . . .
I've never experienced the triple bevel / multi bevel problem even in the first days of using the EP.
I suppose the angle cube is OK (I don't have one) but try just using the collar. Obviously you put the next stone on the collar and set the black rod carriage on top of it using the wing nut. You are doing this right ?
When I am distracted by the news or other things going on I can forget to do this for every stone. Best to not watch tv and sharpen using the EP right ? . . . riiiggggghhhht.

Relax your grip and use the downward pressure from the stone on the arm to hold the knife on the table for the most part. I have a Rat 1 in D2 and didn't notice it to be any different than my other knives.

One thing I have noticed about the small knife attachment is it is possible to run the end of the stone all the way off the edge on the draw stroke on the right side (angling to the right side of the table). This is extremely frustrating and since I really want to use as much of the stone length as I can to keep them flat I may have to add a stop collar so I can go stop to stop and not drop off the edge of the blade.

You sound like you have really gotten into this :
8,000 Shapton Glass ! ! !
16,000 Shapton Glass ! ! ! ! ! (crazy man over kill dude ! ! !)
Stropping ? ? ? ? as in lets make this edge more refined than the 16,000 ? ? ? ?
Nah dude . . . nah.

I have seen (more like felt) where over time some crystals have formed on the Shapton stones after they have sat for a while. More so on my large Shapton Pro bench stones than the Glass stones. These need to be flattened off on a diamond plate.
Is there any chance your stone had something like this on it ? And that caused the scratches ?

8,000 Shapton Glass ! ! !:eek: ;)
16,000 Shapton Glass ! ! ! ! ! (crazy man over kill dude ! ! !) :eek: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:
Stropping ? ? ? ? as in lets make this edge more refined than the 16,000 ? ? ? ? o_O:confused:o_O:confused:
Nah dude . . . nah.

Edge performance wise I don't see a problem at all with the blade being held in slightly different positions left to right or even angled variably ( a little bit ) on a vertical axis. Obviously if the blade is convex and the thing is getting angled to different angles on a horizontal axis that isn't good.

Aesthetically speaking now . . . having the blade float around too much is going to produce some inconsistency in the LOOK of the bevel. I suppose that's why they make Wicked Edge sharpeners. All my knives are users so I go for seriously hair whittling and stop sharpening . . . meaning I hardly look at the bevel as long as the edge is sharp.

By the way to get that kind of edge all I need is the Shapton Glass 4,000 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
(no strop)

8,000 Shapton Glass . . . 16,000 Shapton Glass . . . Stropping :( ?
:) :) :)
 
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The "burnt" area on the tip is actually a low spot from the factory grind a slight bit of oxidation from the water and not being ground away.
At least that's how it looks to me...
 
My .02 (you probably won't like)... pack away the microscope, and the higher grit level stones.... and just practice the basics until you have them down, you feel comfortable using the EP, and you get a decently sharp knife. Then dull and repeat a few times. You should check how a knife cuts long before how it looks under a scope.

...
The edge that came up was sharp, but felt very brittle and thin (entirely subjective observation). It also "grabbed" when dragging the pad of my finger across the edge MUCH more on one side than the other.
...
I noticed it was really hard to keep the knife consistently placed in the same position on the table... for as popular as this system is, it can't always be that loosy goosey, or can it?

The 1st part from your OP is evidence you still have a burr/wire edge.... the 2nd part... just takes practice. As Ben (from EP) says in one of his video, most new users have a tendency to hold the knife with too hard a grip... like Wowbagger said, relax and let the device hold the knife.

This video at 5:00 talks about learning to relax...


and this video at 4:00 shows how much pressure to use...


(You should watch the entire videos a few times... full of tips).

Start with the basics is my recommendation.
 
My .02 (you probably won't like)... pack away the microscope, and the higher grit level stones.... and just practice the basics until you have them down, you feel comfortable using the EP, and you get a decently sharp knife. Then dull and repeat a few times. You should check how a knife cuts long before how it looks under a scope.

Thanks for the feedback and I agree in part. I will say that the triple bevel would have gone unnoticed if it wasn't for the microscope -- it wasn't visible to the naked eye. But I do agree about the basics part. I'll be sure to watch the videos!!
 
triple bevel / multi bevel problem . . . put the next stone on the collar and set the black rod carriage on top of it using the wing nut. You are doing this right ?

PS: :) :) :) = I'm funin' ya . . . we can't take all this too seriously.
 
Bumpity, bump bump bump . . .

(what's been going on ? My crystal ball has gone silent and blank ! Nothimg !
Dulls Ville . . . )
 
Bumpity, bump bump bump . . .

(what's been going on ? My crystal ball has gone silent and blank ! Nothimg !
Dulls Ville . . . )

After a good amount of sharpening over the last week, I’m going to say that the triple bevel issue was due to an inconsistent positioning of the blade on the table. Now I’ve got other issues! lol, new thread incoming.
 
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