first whittling knife....

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Jun 12, 2005
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well, I have been searching the forum on the topic and have decided my first whittling knife will be either a Queen Stockman (D2) or a Moore Maker Stockman (carbon blade)....now the question is which would make a better all-around whittling knife. The truth of the matter is I will likely buy both at some point, but there can be only one first. Thanks for your thoughts....
 
I think I'd go with the 1095, which is what I believe Mooremaker uses. It will be easier to sharpen, will take a fine edge and will hold that edge for a good time. The D2 will be harder to sharpen and may not take quite as fine an edge, but it will be usable, and will hold that edge a bit longer. Both great choices, but it tips in the 1095 favor for me. I hear great things about Mooremaker, I haven't got around to getting one yet myself.
 
D2 is one of my favorite steels but I really like 1095 also. There is something nostalgic about a steel that kind of shows its age with you as you carry it. Nothing has ever quite replaced the character from the patina that can develop from a high carbon old time steel, at least not for me anyway.

STR
 
Depending on which MM you get, both knives will be made by Queen. Next step: look at the price tags. :eek: i'd say go with a Queen to start off (although I have a really nice Queen-made MM jumbo stockman in yellow bone... one of my favorite knives).

Long & short of it is: you can't go wrong either way!
 
It will be much less frustrating to use 1095! If you are a beginner at whittling, you will experiment with edge angles, and D2 is much tougher to re-profile. 1095 will allow you much more flexibility! My 2 cents.
 
I've got a Queen whittler with D2 blades. The D2 holds an edge for a long time compared to 1095 or CV. Still, I do most of my whittling with a Schrade with 1095 blades. The 1095 can be kept sharp easily by stropping.
 
D2 is good steel, but personally, for whittling, I would go with the 1095. D2, although tough, does not flex well, and 1095 will be much more forgiving to blade stress. Using a D2 blade for whittling, will make it prone to chipping more during use.
That said, D2 is a great steel, almost stainless (due to the high rockwell and tight grains), but for whittling go with the 1095. It will be much easier to sharpen. And I think you will thank yourself later!
 
...D2 is a great steel, almost stainless (due to the high rockwell and tight grains)...

Hardness ("Rockwell") and grain size ("tight grains") has nothing to do with how stainless a steel is. You don't mean almost stainless due to the chemical composition of the steel by any chance (in this steel mainly the chromium content plays a role for the "stainlessness")?

/ Karl
 
Karl, you are wrong.

Ive been making knives for over 25 years.

It is very true that the make up of any given steel has properties which increase, or decrease its stain resistance (that's a given).

But, the temper of a blade does also play a part in this! You can take a blade that has a high temper, and the same with a low temper. The higher the temper, the tighter the grain structure, which does make it more stain resistant!

Now in forging a blade (not stock removal), such as one in 1095. You can forge the blade and tighten the grain, and it will be mroe stain resistant. You can take that same blade and not forge it (just stock removal), and it will not be as resistant to staining.

These are just facts.
 
This turned into a very long response.
Sorry about that.


Karl, you are wrong.

Well, I'm right and, looking at some parts with your eyes, I'm wrong.
I guess I should have been more precise with my answer.


It is very true that the make up of any given steel has properties which increase, or decrease its stain resistance (that's a given).

But, the temper of a blade does also play a part in this! You can take a blade that has a high temper, and the same with a low temper. The higher the temper, the tighter the grain structure, which does make it more stain resistant!

Now in forging a blade (not stock removal), such as one in 1095. You can forge the blade and tighten the grain, and it will be mroe stain resistant. You can take that same blade and not forge it (just stock removal), and it will not be as resistant to staining.

These are just facts.

This is all true when you compare steel 1095 with steel 1095. There I agree completely, and is also where you took me as being wrong in my original statement.
The higher temper will contain more martensitic phase than a lower temper (in your words: more martensite = "tighten the grain"), and as the martensitic phase has a better stain resistance than the ferritic phase (which will be the main part of the remainder of the steel), it will inevitably give you a corresponding better stain resistance.
As martensite is also harder than ferrite, that's also the reason why the higher temper gives you a harder steel. I guess that's why you mean that a harder steel (in your words: "Rockwell") gives a better stain resistance.
Both "tighten the grain" and "Rockwell" have the same reason though, the higher martensitic content in the steel.
I assume these are the facts you're referring to.

If I misunderstood you wanting to compare stainlessness (is that a word?) between 1095 and D2, then just ignore the following and accept my apology. If I didn't misunderstand you...
However, when comparing a 1095 steel to a D2 steel, it's not the same story. This is where I disagree and where my original comment is true!
In that comparison, the chemical content, mainly the chromium, plays the main role.
Now, theoretically, a minimum of 12% chromium is needed to be able to call a steel stainless. In practice, however, a slightly higher chromium content is needed to make it a stainless steel in the true sense (whatever that means).
D2 contains 11-13% chromium (and some other stuff too) and a fair bit of that chromium is "used" together with it's relatively high carbon content to form coarse chromium carbides, leaving less than 12% chromium for stain resistance. This is the very reason D2 is so often called semi-stainless. Since it's on the very edge with the chromium content (or even slightly lower), a corrosive media (such as for instance blood on a hunting knife) can eat it's way through that stain protection if you're unlucky.
Now, as the 1095 steel doesn't contain any chromium at all, it will ALWAYS be less stain resistant than D2. Disregarding which heat treatment it has received . That's also why you readily get a patina on a 1095 steel, but not on the D2 steel.


Sorry about the rant but:
Ive been making knives for over 25 years.
I've been working as a materials engineer for 16 years, and the materials engineer that taught me the trade has been in it for over 40 years.

/ Karl
 
Neat reply Karl5. Can you shed any light on what I've observed with Queen D2 vs. Queen 1095. As you indicate the D2 is more stain resistant than 1095, however, the D2 seems to pit a lot easier than 1095. Is this just my imagination or is there any material's chemistry behind it?
 
Neat reply Karl5. Can you shed any light on what I've observed with Queen D2 vs. Queen 1095. As you indicate the D2 is more stain resistant than 1095, however, the D2 seems to pit a lot easier than 1095. Is this just my imagination or is there any material's chemistry behind it?

Thanks brownshoe.

No, it's not just your imagination, you're absolutely correct on that one.
Again it's the materials chemistry that does the difference.

The 1095 steel has an even distribution of its phases, and so the "staining" of that steel will also be even. I guess all here at the forums (including myself) prefer to call that staining "patina" when you see your carbon steel blade get that lovely change of colour after some use.

The D2 steel is different. As the chromium carbides "use" some of the chromium in their vicinity, the chromium content will not be equally distributed throughout the steel. Instead, there will be a slightly lower chromium content just around the carbides (which are distributed like little "islands" throughout the material). And that's where the staining/corrosion can take a bite. The other parts of the steel (away from the carbides) will have enough chromium to fight off that first corrosion attack. So instead of an evenly distributed staining, you get some staining starting as little pinpricks around the (blade surface) carbides, and if you don't look after your blade, those pinpricks will grow into little pits. And there you have your pitting corrosion.

So, to summarise:
1095 - evenly distributed staining (sorry, I meant to say patina) through evenly distributed phases.
D2 - pitting through unevenly distributed chromium content.

Hope that answer explains more than confuses.

/ Karl
 
Karl, your explanations are very clear, and most welcome!!
 
Good to know that physical observation can be backed up by the scientific explanation.

The pitting of D2 is one of the reasons I like my Queens to be S&Ms in ATS34. I use my D2 toothpick in the kitchen and it pitts, but my S&M (2000 versison) toothpick in ATS34 doesn't stain or pit and holds a great edge. My fear with the D2 is that it would pit on the edge if I forgot to wipe it off. Pickle juice does a number on it, but toothpicks are great for spearing pickles. I gave away the D2 toothpick because the S&M is not only a better steel but overall just a better knife.
 
very informative and I appreciate all of you taking the time to give your opinions. I bought a Moore Maker Stockman today from Cumberland Knife Works and will (hopefully) be posting pictures of my first wooden chain later this month...thanks again to all...G2
 
I took up whittling about 7-8 years ago. Great hobby. Get Tangerman's Whittling and Woodcarving book if you haven't already. It is the best source on the subject, hands down.
 
Hey Karl, great post. I'm an ME with some materials training, but not a metallurgist. I perceive that D2 does not, overall, have a "tight" grain structure. Something, I'm guessing the chromium carbides, are pretty large relative to the rest of the matrix and tend to fall out during sharpening, thereby accounting for the relative ease of obtaining a coarse, toothy edge, and the difficulty of obtaining a fine polished edge.
 
Hey Karl, great post. I'm an ME with some materials training, but not a metallurgist. I perceive that D2 does not, overall, have a "tight" grain structure. Something, I'm guessing the chromium carbides, are pretty large relative to the rest of the matrix and tend to fall out during sharpening, thereby accounting for the relative ease of obtaining a coarse, toothy edge, and the difficulty of obtaining a fine polished edge.

You're absolutely correct in your "guessing". :thumbup:
And I'm "guessing" you know more about metallurgy than you give yourself credit for... :D

/ Karl
 
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