Fit and Finish most important? Or should it be function?

D

DrPenguin

Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
502
I often hear of 'fit and finish' when the subject of traditional knives comes up. I honestly have to tell you that I believe by their very nature traditional knives are more of a hit and miss venture as compared to modern and tactical knives. Old machining and techniques are employed, hard to deal with materials are used as handles, hand finishing is required.

I bring this up because I read a lot of the wonderful reviews of knives here and elsewhere and look at what people find important in a knife. Then I look at myself. Funny thing I have realized recently is that for me THE most important thing I judge a knife on is how it opens and closes. I suppose it's the engineer in me coming out. I don't think it is an accident that the knifes I have stuck with and chosen to EDC all seem to have the same pull (aside from the half stop one). They have a fairly firm pull that stays constant and then ramps noticeably up after halfway... then slams open hard at the end.

I'm wondering if I am alone in this. Does pull mean this much to anyone else?

After pull I look at the fit of the bolsters to the handle material, and whether the handles move or are solidly attached, and whether the springs have gaps, whether the nail nick is robust or is shallow, whether the blades rub and/or are centered, whether the knife feels good in hand. But FIRST I judge it by the pull. And it seems like I will put up with deficiencies in other areas if the opening pull feels good to me.

Is that odd or what? :)

Will
 
I'm with u on this one. If I pick up a knife I'm potentially goin to buy, I want strong springs. It has to b smooth but strong. Then I look at the pins and liners etc. I want a knife that I know will hold up for the long haul. If I pick out a knife with handles I like and if it has a weak snap I'll go with the stronger knife even tho I don't like the handle. All the knives I buy, I buy em for work knives. I usually don't buy to many knives with stag, pearl, or exotic scales on em bc of durability. I'm a yellow composition, bone, wood type of guy. I rarely buy knife I can't hold and inspect first. If I can't find a knife I like locally I'll order em.
 
This is a coffee/tea, beer/ale or bourbon/scotch thing. It really depends on the collector.

I too am an engineer and for me, there is a point after which fit and finish discussions move well beyond questions of tolerance against a specification for proper function. It can become fit and finish as an end to itself.

For me, and only for me, pointless perfection leaves me cold. I'm carrying an old Ulster camper today, not (name any well known custom maker here) for a reason.

Nothing wrong with "perfect" stuff. It's highly personal.
 
I look at everything, but number 1 for me is the blade and how well it cuts. Is the grind nice and thin at the edge? (That is my number one).
 
I look to see if the blade rubs on the handle. If it doesn't, then I move on to check "snap", then I check play, then finally, gaps.
If the gaps don't go away when I press on them, then were good to go!
 
pinnah said:
(...) For me, and only for me, pointless perfection leaves me cold. I'm carrying an old Ulster camper today, not (name any well known custom maker here) for a reason.

Nothing wrong with "perfect" stuff. It's highly personal.
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That's more or less my view. In an odd sort of way, I've begun to see 'perfection' in old, somewhat weathered and scuffed knives that at least look like they have some real character and history. My favorite knives, by far, are the older ones I've picked up fairly cheaply and cleaned up & re-sharpened with new 'teeth'. The perfection lies in the fact that they're fantastic users, ones which I'll never be afraid to scratch up. All of the 'perfectly pretty' and (usually) expensive knives I've collected usually get tucked away somewhere, and seldom used. It's nice occasionally, to pull them out and admire the attention to detail and craftsmanship. But in many cases, I don't seem to get that much satisfaction in owning them anymore.
 
How a knife opens and closes is very important to me as well. If I like the action on a knife it plays a big role in the enjoyment I get from using it. Good snap on closing is probably the most desirable aspect of a traditional knife for me. The sound of a blade snapping shut with authority gives me pleasure. It's like the knifes' final word of approval for a job well done. Same reason I like Zippo lighters.

Pull strength is a little less important to me but I don't like it to be too weak or too strong. I can be happy with anything between a 4-8 on the pull scale as long as the snap is good.

Fit & finish is important to me as well but I can tolerate some minor imperfections as long as I enjoy the action of the blades.
 
Bastid said:
I look at everything, but number 1 for me is the blade and how well it cuts. Is the grind nice and thin at the edge? (That is my number one).
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Agreed.

Here's my two cents. I don't know about everyone else, but in my experience slipjoints with good fit and finish tend to get the other things right as well. It's been a pretty reliable indicator of quality.

- Christian
 
For me, it's the combination of how everything comes together. I can't say that there is one single aspect of a knife that is substantially more important. I can easily overlook a small flaw in one area if I like the knife otherwise.

It's hard to separate the two because if the fit is bad enough it can affect the function.
 
Bastid said:
I look at everything, but number 1 for me is the blade and how well it cuts. Is the grind nice and thin at the edge? (That is my number one).
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I agree with Gus about the blade(s). I would put pattern/design in second place and mechanics in third place. And the rest is a distant fourth in my books.
 
Interessting thread!

To me it´s like this. Little gaps or whatever don´t really bother me. Not centered blades bother me. How it opens or closes is important, but not the main thing.
BUT what´s important - the way how the flaws are if the function is wrong at any term. So, if an uncentered blade rubs agains the liner which means a dull blade at that point is not ok. The same with the scales. When they are in danger to fall off, it´s not ok.

However. Nearly perfect Function is more important than a perfect F&F.

Kind regards
Andi
 
I used to be very picky but now I can live with a knife if the knife is close to my expectations.
Hi Andi!
 
If it's a new knife it had better have a blade like Bastid's example, mechanical better be great and about a medium fit and finish is what I'll accept. If I didn't like the knife design and pattern I wouldn't have picked it up in the first place.
 
jakemex said:
If it's a new knife it had better have a blade like Bastid's example, mechanical better be great and about a medium fit and finish is what I'll accept. If I didn't like the knife design and pattern I wouldn't have picked it up in the first place.
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In my opinion, the oldies have much better grinds than most new knives.
 
kamagong said:
Agreed.

Here's my two cents. I don't know about everyone else, but in my experience slipjoints with good fit and finish tend to get the other things right as well. It's been a pretty reliable indicator of quality.

- Christian
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Like you said.


I'm shallow enough that I like good looking knives with a good F&F.
For dirty work I like blades that will hold a fair edge, strong to medium springs, lesser F&F where gaps are not a concern, for harsh working conditions and hard use.

It boils down to, I buy a knife for a use in mind. Steel carbon or SS, F&F and handle material. Unlike in my youth where one knife did all things, being older now and having the luxury of owning more than 2 :D, having choice is great, but function rules #1.

Sure that Lady Congress looks great standing at the end of the Bar and is nice looking, but when you have to work with her, that biker chick named Trapper with a PhD might be a better choice. :D
 
Looks like I am an oddball. :)

Funny thing about my new EDC it that it is a GEC and tbh the pull on their knives is the greatest point of inconsistency I find. Their fit and finish has been very good on the knives I've bought from them. The pull on their knives ranges from outstanding to weak to having the springs disabled because of being assembled too tightly. It's a crapshoot.

I remember reading about all of the work that the US car manufacturers did on controls such as peddles and steering and wondered what was the reason. Talked to them and they say that it has a huge impact on how people judge the vehicle. An accelerator pedal has to have the perfect resistance, too much and people feel like the car doesn't have the pick up they'd like. Likewise the steering or folks feel that the car is unresponsive.

I'll add that I agree that how a knife takes and holds an edge is something that can rob me of enjoyment of a knife. If my fiance's kitchen knife loses its edge as quickly as the last time I sharpened it (after I spent an hour on it yesterday) it may find a home buried under a rock somewhere in the nearby woods, lol. :)

Will
 
DrPenguin said:
Looks like I am an oddball. :)

Funny thing about my new EDC it that it is a GEC and tbh the pull on their knives is the greatest point of inconsistency I find. Their fit and finish has been very good on the knives I've bought from them. The pull on their knives ranges from outstanding to weak to having the springs disabled because of being assembled too tightly. It's a crapshoot.

I remember reading about all of the work that the US car manufacturers did on controls such as peddles and steering and wondered what was the reason. Talked to them and they say that it has a huge impact on how people judge the vehicle. An accelerator pedal has to have the perfect resistance, too much and people feel like the car doesn't have the pick up they'd like. Likewise the steering or folks feel that the car is unresponsive.

I'll add that I agree that how a knife takes and holds an edge is something that can rob me of enjoyment of a knife. If my fiance's kitchen knife loses its edge as quickly as the last time I sharpened it (after I spent an hour on it yesterday) it may find a home buried under a rock somewhere in the nearby woods, lol. :)

Will
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I GUESS my Question is: Whats wrong with having it all?,,,,, Fit , Finish, Looks, and performance !


Regards,

Velocity knives
 
Everything is important to me on a handmade custom knife. Blade centered, open and closing, fit finish, function, everything down to detent and tiny gaps every bit of it is highly important to me. I don't really buy productions and never carry production knives. The most important thing to me is first check to see if the blade is centered then I open and close the knife a few times to check the action detent and lock up blade play then close the knife check out the enternals to see how they set and move I then move on to the scales and bolsters making sure everything butts up and if there are any gaps in the scales and liners blackstrap... And the list goes on and on I'm very picky but only on mine my fathers and grandfathers knives for some reason when I pick up other makers knives and see tiny imperfections I just let it go and still buy the knife. I guess I'm to picky on my own work cause I think if it's not perfect in every aspect no one will buy it. I'm still trying to make a perfect knife with no flaws. I'll get there eventually.
 
VelocityMfg said:
I GUESS my Question is: Whats wrong with having it all?,,,,, Fit , Finish, Looks, and performance !
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Nothing!

The only place this discussion (and it has it's counter parts in every collecting world I know of) can take a bad turn is trying to argue that others take the same view.

For some collectors, having it all matters and that's cool.

For others there are things they don't need. That's cool too.

"All skis are rock skis" my old skiing buds would say. I would be owned by an expensive knife and prefer to own and abuse less expensive knives. For me, that's a benefit, not an unfortunate compromise.

This is YMMV territory.
 
Nothing is wrong with wanting it all... but if you're shopping modern production knives either your perception of "it all" is different than mine or you cherry pick and own very few knives. I've seen very few examples of regular modern production knives that I'd say have it all. Many are good enough. And a few are really nice. Customs and semi customs are on a different level.
 
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