"Fit & Finish" - discussion

Sal Glesser

Sal Glesser

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Dec 27, 1998
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I have noticed a recent trend in knives that confuses me and I would be most interested to hear some opinions and dicsussion from the aficianados that visit here.

I'm posting this on both Spyderco forums. I realize it is more of a "general interest" discussion, but in the end, it will be how Spyderco ELUs think and how it applies to Spyderco that will be of the most interest to me, and you.

Cabinet making took a turn in the 70's. The "fit & finish" which was paramount earlier became less important. The term "jointery" was applied to cabinet makers because of the skill required to "join" wood pieces together and make them look like one piece of wood. The greater the "skill", the greater the "quality".

Then other methods of handling the "joint" became more popular. The using of a raised section, or a routed divider to separate the "joint" was far more cost effective and the customer wasn't sophisticated enough in jointery to know the difference.

The "fit" is gone in modern cabinetry, the finish is still there, but most of the pieces are "stuck" together rather than "fitted" together. Just look around your house at the cabinets and furniture.

About 10 years ago, I began to notice the same effect in much of modern knife design. slabs were no longer "fitted" to the liners, but made smaller and "stuck" on. Certainly much cheaper to build that way. There is still a great deal of "fit" with the "finish" in the world of custom makers, but even there I see the "quick" way.

I always thought of it as "cheating" on the "fit", but maybe that's just me.

To me, bolsters that are "fitted & finished" to the scale material demostrate much greater "skill" and therefore "quality" than bolsters that are separated by a large groove or notch.

What is your opinion. Am I just "old fashioned" or is the "less skilled" manufacturing approach the way of the future in knife design and manufacture?

sal

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"We are all teachers and we are all students"
 
I buy Spyderco knives because when I pick up my Endura and hand it to someone the ALWAYS hand it back and say, "That's quite a knife." The almost don't want to give it back, and that's just the Endura! I wouldn't never get a Manix or Military away from them.

Fit and Finish with Spyderco knives is great and I like it that way. There are always changes that can and have been made, but they have also been of fine F&F.

Keep things going the way they are Sal, and watch Johnny Cut Corners fall by the wayside. ;)
 
Sal Glesser said:
To me, bolsters that are "fitted & finished" to the scale material demostrate much greater "skill" and therefore "quality" than bolsters that are separated by a large groove or notch.

What is your opinion. Am I just "old fashioned" or is the "less skilled" manufacturing approach the way of the future in knife design and manufacture?

sal

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"We are all teachers and we are all students"
Click to expand...


Sal,

I believe that you are a little "old fashioned" as you put it but I mean that in the most complimentary way possible! I also agree that a sure sign of quality is when the handle scales fit properly and line up without and gaps or material overhanging the edges. I also believe that the trend you are describing is how knife production will continue. I have looked at my knives that use dual liners with G-10 or Carbon fiber scales attached to them and I see what you are describing. The difference is small and I don't think that most knife ELU's even notice the slight dimension difference between the scales and the liners. It is a sign of knife manufacturers taking the easy way and saving money as well as time in production. Unfortunately I think that this trend is the future of production knives.

This is one reason that I like aluminum and Titanium handled knives like the Salsa, Navigator, BM's 940 series, ect.


I'm curious to read other people's comments.
 
I think the old fashioned way of fit and finish is good.

I noticed the same thing in plumbing a house. My father taught me how to properly plumb a house (he's a master plumber and owns his own company). Even though the pipes and water lines are all in the walls and in the basement you should still make sure that you have a clean joint where you soldier copper pipe together. Same with ABS or PVC. Don't just let the glue run down the pipe, wipe it off and make it look clean. We walked through a few other unfinished homes to see how other plumbers were doing things. The drain lines and water lines were thrown in, and nothing was plumb. Where I come from you use a level and make sure there is 1/4" per foot of fall on the drain lines. If not the solid waste will be left behind by the liquid waste. It was obvious that the contractors and the home owners don't care because they live in the here and now. They don't care if they have good plumbing 30 years down the road. As long as it works NOW and for the next 5 years they are happy. This is the kind of plumbing job that my father is competeing against. The other companies are throwing stuff in and not looking back. They are beating him on the bids in some areas. Why? Because the work and the fit and finish are horrible. Even if something will never be seen again (like the pipes in your walls) you need to do a good job on it. It's just not right if you don't.

So, Sal, I think you do a good job and I think you should keep doing it the old fashioned way. That's the right way!

I do however think that you could make the "low end" knives a little better. I mean I am willing to pay a little more for good stuff. I would rather have adjustable pivot screws in knives like the Delica and the Calypso Jr. I would like to be able to take the knife apart if needed like I can do with a Manix.

I like seeing that "U.S.A" stamp on things, even if it means paying more money to get it. Would I buy a Delica that was $60 instead of $40? Sure.

All, in all, you do a great job. No need to shortcut just because the other guy is. My dad, still never shortcuts in plumbing. He's the best plumber I know. I'd say that even if he wasn't my dad. He does it right. So the other guys underbid him.....oh well. He's going to be getting the phone calls (he already has) from homeowners that are having problems with their 3 year old homes because they weren't plumbed right in the first place.

You reap what you sew. :)

God Bless,
David
 
Sal - slabs that are fit, and bolsters that are joined to the handle material are the only way to go. Keep up what you do so well.
 
I gave a Salsa to one of my professors. One of his comments-

That's quite a knife...John, this is really, REALLY nice.

And that's what I expect when I show my Spydercos to people who don't know a lot about knives. When people do, I expect to hear stuff about ergos and steel.

Keep up the good work, Sal. Hope to meet you at Blade.

John
 
Take a look at your kitchen cabinets. I will bet the doors are on the outside of the face frames. That way the doors do not have to be fitted. That saves time. Once cabinet doors, and all wood doors were made from solid wood and were generally of raised panel construction. And they were fitted in place. Most people don't want to pay for that.

Supposedly, the golden age of woodcraft was in the late 1700's, prior to the coming of machines and mass production. Supposedly the golden age of knife making came in Sheffield prior to say the late 1800's when they were mostly hand made.

These times were followed by very well machine made items. Take all the oak furniture of say the 1920's. Old solid stuff, sought after now. Or the pocket knives of American manufacture 1890's to 1940. Very good machine stuff.

The 1970's was a low point.

I have noticed that the fit and finish of my Spyderco Calypso Jr with micarta scales is a lot higher than that of the later black and grey frn.
 
My doors are SOLID SLAB mahagony. (well, it's a french door)
Leica cameras used to hand fit all the parts. Then they decided if the parts didn't fit, they made a new one that fitted better. No tinkering.
I personally prefer that everything is custom fitted for the single end product. Like Ferrari's old hammered sheetmetal
 
Sal,
I believe that the "old fashioned" way of fit and finish is the right way and, personally, I'm willing to pay for it.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the general population isn't. It's become a Wal-Mart world, with price more important than quality.
 
I can only mirror the statements made by dsvirsky. Seems like you would need to keep the fit & finish "custom-level" to keep us happy, but the mass-buyers might well be satisfied with something more pedestrian (kind of like your Byrd line, though the fit & finish on my Crossbills are flawless).
 
I wont buy a knife with mediocre fit and finish, and this means that I rarely buy (or expect to buy) most low cost knives.

My first good knife was a Chris Reeve Shadow 7" in 1989, and this was followed a couple of years later by a Spyderco Police. These two knives determined how I view quality, what I expect, and what I am happy to pay for.

For me, design comes first, then fit and finish, and materials third.
 
I've gone back to slipjoints, rather than try to buy knives with the newest fads...

I've got ones from the mid 60s to late 80s, in the days before instant gratifcation, and where quality was more important than quantity.
Spyderco is one of the few companies that still go with quality. Just got a cocobolo kopa last week, certainly above and beyond what the general product quality in most industry has fallen to. No-one seems to care now a days, the almighty dollar rules over the morals of giving the customer a shoddy item.

Finding a company who actually cares about quality is what keeps us buying, by continuing to be the shining beacon in a void. It's much more efficient to make a product right the first time than it is to repair it 5-6 times in the same period that the quality one will last before needing maintanence. In that same thought... yes, the $200 product is more expensive... would you rather pay $50 and then $20 every 3-4 months to keep it working? That $200 item will last long after you clear $400 in repairs on the shoddy item.
 
The "new way" of doing things is to make it quick, make it cheap and sell it fast. I don't like it. I'm old-fashioned too.

Let me give you an analogy that is dear to my heart.

I've been a photographer for over 30 years. It's my passion--it's nearly my religion. I love going into a darkroom with the smell of photographic chemicals and making a blank sheet of paper turn into an impressive black and white image. In my opinion, this is the way serious photography is done. It involves craftsmanship, a lot of handwork, a measure of talent and knowledge and a huge dose of dedication.

Along came "digital photography". A computer is now able to make photographs. The image is pretty close to an actual photograph and, to the untrained eye, it's "good enough". It involves little in the way of craftsmanship but it's a way to make a virtual photograph quick and cheap and to increase productivity.

This has served to de-value the craftsmanship--the art--involved in photography simply because the general public think there's nothing to making a picture anymore. But, in the long run, I believe the move to the quick and cheap will come full circle and there will evolve a new appreciation of craftsmanship.

Back to knives. Spyderco and a few other brands are still dedicated to craftsmanship in manufacturing knives. It's sad to see great old names in knife making disappear or turn into low quality junk. I'm still willing to pay for craftsmanship because, in the long run, it's more economical.
 
hmmm, my problem in answering is that I don't believe there is a standard measure of what issues comprise F&F in a knife. It's also complicated by expectation which is set by such things as price and education. Even more the problem is the difficulty in separating F&F from engineering and aethetics. Rather then attempting to discuss it from the ground up which I think would be too difficult, I'll try using some examples.

- I had a Bob Lum Chinese, which I liked alot but the interior handle edges where left sharp so it was unfomfortable to grip. I believe this was a F&F issue.

- Same Lum Chiniese knife, looked great, but was a little slippery to hold onto, this could either be a design issue such a different handle shape or production issiue as what material to use. Not a F&F issue. (Or could be if someone thought, "they left the handles tto smooth!")

- I don't like the sharp Hole edges, I understand it's a deliberate design issue, but for quite a while I thought it was a F&F issue.

- Almost all of SPyderco's FRN and most of the older version G10 folders have a little scrush-scrush when opening. Design choice of F&F issue? (Especially when a G10 knife costs over $100)

- If I bought a ATR with a little blade play, with a high MSRP, I'm gonna figure that's an F&F issue.

- Same ATR, but if I know the ATR does not have a blade bushing (like a sebenza) , therefore is dependent on the perfect pivot tension for ease of use and lockup, then I'd say that's a design issue. (Education).
 
Some may cut corners to keep the cost of a knife down, but I will always be willing to pay more for the better quality knife. If I pay $100+ for a folder (or any knife, for that matter), I expect the quality to be exceptional, including fit and finish. I have sent knives back for exchange if I didn't feel the knife was of the quality I expected, and I'm sure I will at some point in the future. I work hard for my money, and I feel that I deserve a level of quality equal to every cent I pay for knife (or anything I else, for that matter). Spyderco products have never let me down. The only Spyderco I ever returned was a Temperance fixed blade, and it wasn't a quality issue. I just felt that the tip was too thin for my intended usage. That is the downfall of having to order knives; you never really know exactly what you're getting at the time of purchase.
 
(second time typing this long thing, somehow it vanished when I tried to post it the first time. :( )

Sal:

I like perfect fit and finish too. When you make something (like a cabinet or knife), there is a certain way you mean for it to be. Mostly you mean for the parts to all fit together or for it to take on some specific form. We accept imperfection out of necessity, but we are indeed accepting a lower standard. There is no default standard for imperfect quality; anything less than perfect is personal taste for comprimise. So when I or someone else says something is not perfect, we are expressing our lack of comprimise, not some ancient gripe.

There are some practices that sacrifice quality greatly, like undersized slabs you mentioned and "bead blasting." They both fit the concept of "if we make it bad enough we can pretend we meant to do it" and I hate it.

However, and I mean no disrespect as I love Spyderco as a company and most of my Spyderco knives, I am slightly surprised to hear you bring up this issue because I do not think of Spyderco as making knives the old fashioned way with perfection in every detail. I think the Spyderco Delica, Endura, or Native (all varieties) are the best deals out there for a knife and I, like many others, always suggest a Delica when someone asks which single knife should be their first/only. I like these knives because they are such good blades and general designs for the money. It's hard to find a better blade than the current Delica at all, certainly for the same price.

I use mainly FRN Delicas and Natives because I like low weight and they seem plenty durable. I also like the adapted shape of the Native III. I have 3 US-made Natives, 1 Native III (although I have handled several searching for a perfect unit), about 6 FRN Delicas, and 3 Enduras. Since you brought this up :), here are my observations on the fit/finish...

The pivot pin on all of them is a little too small, and the blades have some up/down wiggle.

The back end of the tang on many Delicas is not fully polished. There are ridges left over from the previous step that result in non-smooth opening. Some are perfect, like the Salt I I just received.

Most of the time the Delica lock bars don't line up with the handle in the open position, often not in the closed position.

The Delica blades never seems to be mounted in the same place, usually it does not reach the spine of the handle or lock bar.

The same goes for the Natives, but the US-made Native is much worse with the lock bar position. It always sinks way below the handle at the front end, and the back end sticks out.

The blade on the US-made Natives also tends to wiggle left/right (I think because the rivet is too loose, I fixed one of mine in a vice, two others still have the same problem). The Japanese Delicas and Natives always have perfect blade/handle width.

The inconsistent arrangements of blades and lock bars makes the mechanics of the lock vary. Every lock has some amount of "wedge factor." If you open the knife, put downward pressure on the blade, and wiggle the lock bar up and down you can see the wedge factor for the knife--the blade will wiggle up and down when you do this, if not when pushing down it will happen when pushing the blade up against the lock bar and doing the same thing. One Delica I have hardly moves at all when pushing down on the blade and moving the lock bar. This is a very safe design, because closing pressure on the blade does not result in any force that wants to make the mechanism unlock. But if, when you press down on the blade and wiggle the lock, the blade wiggles up and down, you have a wedge arrangement that results in force that wants to make the blade unlock under pressure. I have had Gerber and Buck knives which I could force-close using only my hands and without touching the lock bar. I haven't tried it with a Delica, and usually the Delicas have very little wedge, but it is still there and it is something I consider imperfect.

My US-made Natives have very little wedge factor in the closing direction. The Native III has more closing-direction wedge than most of my Delicas, which in general are OK. I had one Delica that was about perfect.

Fancier models may be better, but I definitely do not think the FRN models should be treated as the "cheap" models that are OK with more imperfections.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with you Sal, that the small stuff in knifemaking are what make all the difference.

I can think of a few prime examples where fit & finish are skimped on where they don't need to be, take for example, the CRK green beret. Instead of making the handle slabs flush with the tang, they leave a slight margin all the way around. Not only does this expose more of the steel to be unavoidably gripped during hot conditions, it transfers more shock at the narrow contact point with the finngers during chopping, which makes for less comfortable use. In other words, as great of a knife as it is, it could still use an extra step in F & F. I can also cite a few models of of my favorite custom makers, Brad Duncan (Monster) & RJ Martin (Avenger, Devastator, Trooper) that take the easy way out when it comes to fitting the handle slab to the liner.

The Manix, Military, and Chinook are prime examples of perfect F & F. I have had spydies which didn't have perfectly flush lineup of the backlock, nor did they have perfectly even grinds, but they were in lower price brackets, & thus it is somewhat justified.
 
I think the thing I like best about spydies is the form follows function attitude to most of the knives. Fit and finish for me is only important as it relates to function, if it makes theknife less usebale because of gaps or sharp edges or poor tolerances then its a problem. If the fit and finish doesn't detract from anything but the knifes appearance then I don't really care. How you do it is up to you and your bottom line, I don't need to see a demonstration of super engineering or hand fitting if that isn't going to improve the knifes ability to perform its intended function. The fit and finish on Delicas and Enduras is good enough to not interfere with them being comfortable, carriable cutting tools so nothing broke nothing to fix.
I am sure if I bought gents folders then this would mean a lot more to me.
My only memorable experience with f and F interfereing with my use of a spydie was the sharp edge on the base of the para milis blade, Spyderco fixed that as I understand it, no more issue

Thanks for that and keep function first
 
I would sort of echo DaveH's sentiments. I love my Spyderco's, and all of them I own currently and most of them through the years have been the Golden, CO ones or the custom collabs and I've seen a pretty high number of fit and finish issues. TO me, it doesn't detract from the knife, really, because I have never seen perfection in a knife, so a little F&F problem is no big deal for me. But, I think all of the factories, Spyderco included, are guilty of this.
 
Well...

You can only expect a certain level from a production company, but with technology, machine fit is getting closer and closer to hand fit.

Sure, when I buy a custom I can't even see a transition gap between scale/bolster/liner. OLDER production knives, I can almost slide a piece of paper between them.

However, with modern equipment, factories like Spyderco and others can cut their parts so close to the right size that you get sometimes very near hand fit. We value that, but that's all we really expect from a factory knife.

Same with finish.
 
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