Fixed blade in a car?

[sarahk]

Is carrying a fixed blade on one's side in a vehicle considered to be concealed? My partner has a holster/sheath for the knife and carries it in such a way that his shirt does not cover it, but it would not be visible from the driver's side window (he's right-handed).

We live in Raleigh, NC if that makes any difference. Under North Carolina law, a CCW permit does not cover anything but handguns. :grumpy: We have a copy of the 2006 Law Enforcement Officer's Quick Reference Statute Guide (Blue Book for North Carolina), but even there it's a bit confusing. "Concealed about his person" is what's giving us trouble (rather than "on his person").

Since the knife would be within easy reach, yet not concealed should he stand up and get out of the vehicle, we're wondering if the vehicle's door itself or his body (he isn't see-through) counts as concealment? We aren't trying to break any laws (hence why I'm asking here) and any help would be useful.

 

[kgrubb]

Is carrying a fixed blade on one's side in a vehicle considered to be concealed?

As is so often the case, the correct answer is it all depends. Depends upon the demeanor and appearance of the knife carrier, where and when it's all happenin', how good or bad of a day the officer in question is having, and a host of other things. Along the way, somewhere, statutes and caselaw will eventually enter into the mix.

I lived in the Tar Heel state for just over a year and a half. I had a NC Concealed Handgun Permit, and as you correctly point out it is for handguns only. I would add that I've lived in 4 Shall Issue States (Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Washington), and North Carolina far and away has the most onerous concealed carry statutes of those 4 states.

In answer to your question, this thread has some good links on the subject. Alas, the caselaw is rather thin, but I commend it to you anyway.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406948

My partner has a holster/sheath for the knife and carries it in such a way that his shirt does not cover it, but it would not be visible from the driver's side window (he's right-handed).

Ken's Generalized Rules of Knife Legality
- Color matters - Black blades are the least legal, followed by cammie, then OD green, follow by metal colored blades which are the most legal
- Length matters - Longer blades are less legal than shorter blades
- Two is not better than one - Double edged knives are less legal than single edged knives
- Don't get the point - Serrated blades are less legal than plain edged blades
- Some movement is good - Fixed blades are less legal than folding blades, but only if the folding blade doesn't move too fast such as a balisong, auto knife, gravity knife, or other knife which opens "by an outward, downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement"

My advice, ask your partner to get a NC Concealed Handgun Permit--if he does not already have one--urge him to carry a concealed handgun instead of a fixed blade, and switch to a small folder clipped to his pants pocket.

Ken's Final Generalized Rule of Knife Legality:
A prosecutor may, I stress may, be disinclined to prosecute a person for violating a knife possession statute when that person is legally permitted to carry a concealed handgun.

We live in Raleigh, NC if that makes any difference.

I found only 2 hits in the Raleigh Municipal Code that reference blade, knife or knifes.
http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10312&sid=33

Other city and county ordinances may well vary, as will interpretation and enforcement thereof.

If you're still asking, "But I REALLY still want a legal answer", let me suggest a relatively inexpensive course of action.

Contact the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF.org) and ask about getting contact info for 2A and gunowner friendly lawyers in your area. The info is not posted on their website. You will have to call 'em to find out.

I know it is possible to consult with a friendly lawyer--BEFORE YOU NEED ONE--and get an hour or so of their time for a rather cheap price. If you manage this, you'll certainly wanna ask about deadly force, use of force, verbal warnings, duty to retreat, etc. While there, ask about knives and any caselaw associated with the carrying of knives. Maybe you get lucky and they perhaps run a search for you on the subject, gratis, as part of your consultation. Always ask as a lawyer's time is money.

If not, then that friendly lawyer might well offer up, or accede to, a cost saving suggestion by pointing you to a local law library, perhaps at a local University, where you might do a little of the research yourself, come up with names and case citations, and then the lawyer could have a look at those cases and give you their interpretation of the issue.

 

[sarahk]

Thanks for the reply! As I thought, if there aren't a lot of detailed definitions, it's probably up the the officer. I could try check out UNC's law library, but I haven't been there since I was a student and the law course I took made my head hurt.

I checked out those links, as well as some older ones from threads over the years. I think the problem is that NC doesn't have much case law when it comes to knives and even the police officers we've asked (both local and those who come in to Lawman's, a LEO store) had differing opinions and many said that they couldn't give us an answer.

My partner has had the most problems with rookie cops who are trying to follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit. When it comes to his appearance, he's screwed. He's heavily tattooed (full "sleeves", hand tattoos, 2 sets of knuckle tattoos, leg tattoos, and chest tattoos (the chest tattoos are hidden by the shirts he wears) and has a large frame and a naturally intimidating look due to his size. I think that I look pretty tame... unless the cop has a problem with long-, red-haired women.

I carry more knives than he does, including an AO Kershaw, but they're all in my purse. I figure that I have 2 pink folding/pocket knives, the Kershaw, and a small Winchester knife "for cutting ads out of newpapers or magazines" (that's my story and I'm stickin' to it). My partner thinks that the Kershaw will be confiscated if we're stopped. Perhaps I should invest in a purse that locks if his paranoia is justified?

I'm going to try for a CCW (on a .22LR revolver) when I have the time and the money to take the course (I've been unemployed since I moved back last month). My partner thinks that he wouldn't be able to get a CCW because he's bipolar (though never committed). He's been able to buy rifles and shotguns without a hitch, but he's seen a psychiatrist for about 12 years for anxiety and some other problems and thinks that they would deny him for the CCW based on this. I think he'd feel more comfortable with open carry, anyway.

I still plan on carrying the knives for utility, but maybe 4 or 5 in a purse is too much? (Hey, it's better to have at least one you can find in a pinch... you know how women can be about their purses. )

Thanks again for the post!

- Sarah

 

[kgrubb]

As I thought, if there aren't a lot of detailed definitions, it's probably up the officer.

Sadly, yes. It's the unfortunate reality of the knife laws in too many states.

even the police officers we've asked (both local and those who come in to Lawman's, a LEO store) had differing opinions and many said that they couldn't give us an answer.

There's a great deal of myth, legend and lore associated with knife laws--including among cops.

My partner has had the most problems with rookie cops ... When it comes to his appearance, he's screwed.

In that case, he'll need to go outta his way to be polite and respectful, but just don't try to sound like a suck up. A smile, a friendly greeting and honesty when first coming into contact will pay off bigtime.

My partner thinks that the Kershaw will be confiscated if we're stopped.

Where deadly force and weapons are concerned, women have an advantage over men in that sometimes women will get a break that men would not otherwise get. But, don't carry a knife you aren't willing or cannot afford to have confiscated.

I'm going to try for a CCW (on a .22LR revolver) when I have the time and the money to take the course (I've been unemployed since I moved back last month).

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh. A personal pet peeve of mine that state legislators feel no compunction to impose fees and licensing to exercise a right. It's akin to a poll tax.

Climbing down. Putting away the soapbox.

My partner thinks that he wouldn't be able to get a CCW because he's bipolar (though never committed). He's been able to buy rifles and shotguns without a hitch, but he's seen a psychiatrist for about 12 years for anxiety and some other problems and thinks that they would deny him for the CCW based on this.

Actually, the statutes are fairly restrictive about what the authorities can deny.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X3F113E3D

§ 14-415.12(b)
The sheriff shall deny a permit to an applicant who ... is currently, or has been previously adjudicated by a court or administratively determined by a governmental agency whose decisions are subject to judicial review to be, lacking mental capacity or mentally ill. Receipt of previous consultative services or outpatient treatment alone shall not disqualify an applicant under this subdivision.

I'm not a lawyer, but my reading of this tells me that seeing a psychiatrist, and even taking meds, is FAR from being sufficient cause to deny one a CCW.

I think he'd feel more comfortable with open carry, anyway.

Does he open carry now? Guns or knives? NC is more than somewhat ambiguous on open carry of handguns.

 

[peter nap]

North Carolina has always followed Va law fairly closely as far as statute construction. In Va the test is "common observation". If it is hid from Common observation, it is concealed. If not, it's not.

IT does not have to be visible from all directions, just open enough that a casual walk around would disclose it. Remember, a handgun worn openly in a holster cannot be seen from the weak side.