Fixed blade questions

Starfish

Starfish

Joined
Jun 14, 2001
Messages
1,256
I received quite a few good suggestions regarding a survival/self-defense folder to complete my EDC setup (see thread here ). One suggestion that was submitted (several times) was to look at a small fixed blade. This was something I had not considered, but I am interested in. However, I know squat about carrying fixed blades, and have even less experience (read none) using one (except in the kitchen!) So here's some questions...

(1) Does a fixed blade of 4" or less offer any advantage over a folder of the same size? It seems that with some of the folders that were suggested (e.g., Spyderco Chinook), that lock strength is not really an issue. Or are there other failure modes with locking blades that don't exist with a fixed blade?

(2) Can a fixed blade of 4" be concealed when normal dress at work is slacks and button down shirt? How about when wearing shorts and a tucked-in T-shirt (but no belt)? Concealability is important for me since I don't want to draw unnecessary attention to myself at work, but yet I want to have this knife on me as much as possible (what good is a readiness plan if the tools aren't available when you need it!)


Thanks for the help!
 
A fixed blade is superior to a folder in terms of strength. You pretty much have to worry about torque and twisting with any lock, where it's not a real issue with any well-made fixed blade. A fixed blade is just better. I’ve chopped with my small Marbles Fieldcraft, and hammered into wood with it. I’d never dream of doing that with a folder. About the only folder I’ve ever had that even came remotely close to a fixed blade is my large Sebenza. And that only comes remotely close.

Stab a fixed blade as hard as you can into a thick piece of wood. Would you feel comfortable doing that with a folder? Just the thought makes my neck hairs stand up on end.

As far as concealment goes, there are many ways to hide a fixed blade. It’s just a matter of what’s legal or not. Everybody has seen the traditional boot knife. It looks like lots of people are flocking to the whole neck knife concept also.
 
How about a push dagger, especially the Cold Steel Safe Keeper 2 model (provided that push daggers are legal where you live)?
The Safe Keeper is highly efficient for self-defense. The T-handle guarantees a safe grip and enables a high-potential push power. The relatively broad blade is ideal for deep slashing. Furthermore the Safe Keeper 2 has the advantage of a fixed blade (no lock problems, low weight and more stability) and is approximately compact as a folder. Both edges of my Safe Keeper were razor sharp and the Concealex sheath is well suited for IWB and belt carry.

Safe.gif
 
Buzzbait - that's what I need some pointers on...the "many ways to hide a fixed blade". I'm thinking that there is probably a sheath type system that could fit in my pocket or IWB with only minimal exposure, but I don't even know where to begin looking.

Horus - I'm not sure if daggers are legal where I live, but one goal of mine is to maximize the number of places I can carry and be legal. The areas where I can carry a push dagger is probably a subset of the areas where I can carry a fixed blade.

Thanks,

Matthew
 
It really makes little sense to ask this question until you find out what is and isn't legal in the state/city where you live and work. There are many nice options for carrying and concealing a small fixed blade with a variety of clothing. The problem is rather that carrying a <i>deliberately concealed</i> fixed blade of any length is just plain illegal in many jurisdictions, something that is not true of a closed folder.

If this weren't true there wouldn't be nearly as large a folder market as there is. If all restrictions were removed, who would <i>choose</i> to carry a folder over a small fixed blade? A few might, but far fewer than carry them now.

In California, any concealed fixed blade is illegal period, no matter what its size. That means my tiny (1.5" blade) Livesay SOP neck knife is illegal here in CA if I wear it under my shirt. What constitutes "deliberate conealment" also gets kind of complicated. You can carry an <b>unconcealed</b> fixed blade of up to 3" blade length anywhere in the State (where local jurisdictions do not prohibit them). If you are wearing a jacket and that happens to be covering your belt and knife sheath, that's OK too, but if you untuck your shirt to cover your knife, that's not OK!
 
Hey Starfish,

I would start by picking out the blade you like first. Then evaluate the sheath systems available.

I make my own Kydex stuff when needed but there are many designs you can look toward. Normark from OnScene Tactical makes a great sheath and you could also look at Bladerigger to get some ideas as well.

Here are a few ways I've made my sheaths for any given type of carry..

Inverted neck sheath; Most small fixed blades are coming with a sheath capable of being carried this way. Unless you are really dedicated or use your knife a lot, in practice they are a little annoying for EDC IMO.

Small of Back or SOB; These work well if you wear a jacket a lot.

My personal favorite is a horizontal sheath worn right above my zipper with the butt facing my right hand. When my shirt is untucked you cannot see any imprint of the knife.

Jacket pocket paddle; If you wear a coat a lot one of my favorites is to carry a knife inverted and secured to an inside coat pocket by a paddle. This allows you to reach into the coat, tug down on the blade handle to release.

Many people also like having just a low profile sheath that has a tether cord attached to your belt loop. Put the sheath in your back pocket and when you pull the knife out by the handle the tether cord will pull the sheath off as you draw the knife.

I don't make sheaths for resale any more because of demands on my time but feel free to look at my web page for reference as I have many of these styles up there..

http://home.neo.rr.com/thepirtles/
 
Matthew - the deliberately concealed point is one that I had not thought of. Thanks for bringing that to my attention! The local AG informed me that around here (SC), 6" or less is not considered to be a deadly weapon, and therefore does not fall under the state statutes against carry deadly weapons concealed. However, I am not sure that he actually addressed whether or not it is OK to carry a fixed blade concealed.

Being caught with a fixed blade concealed is a lot harder to explain than carrying a folding knife concealed, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Back to do some more research on this...

Thanks again,

Matthew
 
Here in California there certainly is a difference between concealed folder and concealed fixed blade.

It is illegal to conceal a fixed blade of any length.
It is legal to carry a concealed folder of any length.

Also in California, it is illegal to carry a dirk or dagger (fixed or folding), although the State provides no ready definition of what those are. In practice, any knife that appears to be solely designed for punching through a person (like a push dagger) is a major no-no.

As always, common sense and community standards are very important. Unless you do work where you might be threatened on a regular basis, carring a concealed self-defense weapon is rarely accepted in any urban area. However, carrying your 7 inch bowie/hunter in a rural area will probably get few looks.
 
It is legal to carry a dirk or dagger in CA. The only law pertaining to the carry of dirks and daggers is 12020PC. It prevents the carry of any dirk or dagger concealed. Open carry is legal.

The legal size of a fixed blade regardless of blade configuration is 25.5" not 3". Also per case law it is legal in CA to carry a non-folding knife with a blade smaller than 2" concealed.

As an ex-LEO I alway find it funny how many people in this state (including active LEOs) who flat out do not know the law. They seem to pass along what they hear around the office or in the locker room. Takes me back to the good ol' if it is bigger then your palm nonsense.

The only time I have been stopped while carrying a fixed blade was because the officer thought it was a cool looking knife and wanted to see it closer (I am sure this was a pretext, and an attempt at seizure). When he found out I was the maker and that I was also 832PC, he asked for my card and if he and his partner could stop by my shop. BTW, it had a 5" blade.
 
Well, I just read section 12020PC over here at http://www.thesteward.net/rights/cpc12020.html There must be something more to this...

12020 doesn't say <b>anything</b> about length only that: "...or who carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger is punishable by imprisonment..." At its end it also notes that:
"(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section."

I note that in neither paragraph is any mention made of blade length... I conclude from this that there must be other sections of the law that apply here...

R.W., I don't know what 832PC is, but I don't see why your being a former police officer entitles you to carry anything that I can't carry unless you are referring to some special concealed carry permit. I've never heard of such a thing applying to knives, but I stand ready to be enlightened.

I also take it you meant 2.55" not 25.5" as a maximum blade length...
 
Hopefully this will help get the thread back on track... ;)

I don't know how it is in SC but in Ohio the law does not delineate between fixed blades and folders, I really don't think you have too much to worry about as far as that, I would just mind your length.

If you travel a lot and plan to carry this rig with you I would try to stick with something under 4" since that seems to be a generally accepted length. Besides, not too many fixed blades over 3.5" are easily concealed in your back pocket.

I think a Simonich Pikuni or something along those lines may be right up your alley.

The sky's the limit as to how you can carry it, just check my previous post in this thread.
 
832PC is the Penal Code section that gives peace officers their powers. You are referred to as being 832 (slang) after completing your P.O.S.T. (police acadamy).

12020PC does not give blade lengh, you are correct. Only refers to the blade styles. This is, as far as my research has turned up, the only referance to carry of dirk or dagger in CA. It is only illegal to carry them if they are concealed. The felony is the concealed carry, with carry exsposed in a sheath classified as not concealed. With no other PCs on the subject, the exsposed carry of a dirk or dagger is legal.

No, I meant 25.5". I forget the exact code number but a quick search on Find Law will turn it up. It is listed under Health Welfare and Education codes if I remember correctly. The only blade lenght given at all in the Penal Codes is for Switch Blades.

My POST status does not give my any special powers since I am no longer and active LEO. The point is, that anyone can do it. Per CA law any non-prohibited person (ex-felon) can carry any non-folding knife with a blade of up to 25.5" so long as it is in plain view. This however does not apply to prohibited areas such as court houses.
 
Hi R.W... Well that answers the question of how long can it be if its unconcealed, but there was also an issue of carrying a concealed fixed blade. You stated that up to 2.5" was OK, but as far as I can see, its still looks like no <i>concealed</i> fixed carry is legal in CA no matter what the blade length.
 
I believe that he said 2" rather than 2.5". I think he also qualified that by saying that it was authorized by "case law" rather than statute. I think that you are correct in saying that there is no <2" exception in the Cal. statutes for concealed fixed blade carry. I'd like to read the case law to see whether it has any statutory basis or if it is based on a misreading of the <2" exception for switchblades. That exception is not relevant to fixed blades, but a lot of manufacturers, dealers, etc. seem to misread it as permitting ANYTHING under 2".
 
I personally chose to avoid small fixed blade carry after giving it some consideration (one of the blades I had in mind was a Benchmade 145 Nimravus Cub) i've decided fixed blades are only good when you are out in the "wilderness".

I spend most of my time in villages and towns (i'm not much of a big city guy) so I don't mind carrying a decent sized folder, but them fixed blades make the general populace real nervous for some reason, and I don't particularly want to attract attention to myself.

However, when i'm out in the wilderness on a camping, hunting, or whatever trip, where I expect to meet few people, my choice would be an actually large fixed blade, i'm seriously considering a KA-BAR for this purpose.

So here's my attitudes on carry in different locales:

Big City: Small Folder (sub 3" blade, as non-tactical looking as possible)
Towns and Villages (my primary domain): Medium Folder (Emersons, Benchmades etc.)
Wilderness: Big Fixed (KA-BAR USMC, Benchmade 140 Nimravus, etc.)

Think about it...
 
The case was brought to my attention by a lose net friend of mine who knew I was into knives and would find it of interest. He said what case # was, but I don't recall at the moment. BTW, my friend is a Judge in LA County.

Basically

Joe Schmoe was picked up on an H+S violation, and was hit with a felony violation of 12020 as a rider. His public offender was actualy pretty good. He pulled the original papers for the switch blade law which had the law makers reasoning. The law makers argued for the <2 clause based on the idea that any knife sub 2" was in no way a "leathal weapon. This was accepted by the law makers and the cause was placed in the law.

Following this reasoning the attorney argued that since his clients knife was <2" that it also should not be considered a "leathal weapon" but simply a tool. And since 12020 is intended to prevent the concealed carry of dangerous and deadly weapons, it should not be applied in this case. Well in the end, he was nailed on the H+S but the Judge found him not guilty of 12020 because it was reasonably argued that a knife with a <2" blade is not a dangerous or leathal weapon.

So that set the case law. This was set around the end of last year or the first of this year. Now this is where it gets tricky.

The way I understand case law is this. Case law must only be followed if set by a higher court. So case law set by a local trail court does not bind any other trail court or any higher court. This case was not appealed so it stopped at the local level. If a second person was to be arrested for the same event, a differant Judge might not rule the same, and he is not required to rule the same. However, if the appealate(sp) courts had ruled on this case as the first Judge had, it would be binding in that county but not in others. If the State Appealate (sp) court had made the ruling then it would be binding to all of the lower courts in the state, but would not bind another Judge with the State Appealate court. Only if the State Supreme Court made the ruling would it be forever binding in the State. It would be highly unlikely the the US Supreme Court would set any case law on the matter due to limitations put on the Federal Power by the 10th Amd.

So what would happen now is that you could get arrested and found guilty, and then would have to appeal based on the fact that the Judge did not follow the case law, but the case law could be overturned by the Appeals Court. In that case it would be nearly totally illegal.

This can happen because the law is not well defined. To my knowledge, there is no law that precisly bans the concealed carry of fixed blade knives. It is through the interpretation of the definition of "dirk and dagger" as used in 12020 that make it illegal. But there is no size restriction listed in 12020. So only by default does the concealed carry of all fixed blades (or non-folding knives) become a crime. But it is arguable on the fact that the Penal Code is a Restictive law and not Permisive law. Meaning that unless the Penal Code says that you can not do a certain act, it is legal to do.

Is everyone now offically confussed? And you wonder why our courts are so screwed up?
 
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