Flattening stone

R

Ryan J

Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
233
Recently Ive gotten into razor honing and am purchasing a Norton combo 4k/8k so I'll need a flattening stone. Is the Norton flattening stone a quality product? I know people use DMTs but thats a little pricey at the moment. Ive also noticed Naniwa flattening stones fpr around the same price as the Norton. Which is better? And finally the naniwas were labeled #60 and #220, are these the grits? Do i need different grits? Thanks in advance. Im in unknown territory
 
I started flattening stones here recently. I kust found a good flat sidewalk and then 150 sandpaper then 600 then 1000 with water of course. And it done very well. And its cheap! :)
 
most use a granite slab available from granite counter sales. the sic compound makes quick work of it.if you hone razors you should look at the apache strata finishing hone. it is new and works wonders. the darker ones he has are quicker, Escher like edge , not quite but very close
 
From what I've read, many here use a flat spot of concrete with water. A driveway or sidewalk. I don't take most of my stones much past this. Maybe one grit finer, depending. As they can easily become glazed (glassed over) and this changes the grit structure. Actually preventing it from cutting. DM
 
Ryan J said:
Recently Ive gotten into razor honing and am purchasing a Norton combo 4k/8k so I'll need a flattening stone. Is the Norton flattening stone a quality product? I know people use DMTs but thats a little pricey at the moment. Ive also noticed Naniwa flattening stones fpr around the same price as the Norton. Which is better? And finally the naniwas were labeled #60 and #220, are these the grits? Do i need different grits? Thanks in advance. Im in unknown territory
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The Norton waterstones are not the hardest of stones. I would not recommend using a loose grit on them. I have a tile rubbing stone from the tile isle at home depot - runs about 7 bucks maybe. It works well and does not shed a ton of grit, almost none once broken in - if used as a sharpening stone it glazes over rapidly. It makes a good stone for flattening waterstones, and for harder stones can be used with loose SIC grit. If you have a flat combination stone that hasn't been used with oil, that will work too.

Also, working all across the stone can really prolong how often you need to flatten them. If you work the same spot with repetition it will dish very quickly, the 4k more than the 8k. You do not need different grits.
 
Whatever you do don't use the sidewalk, it works for oil stones but is not recommended for waterstones due to them being softer (in most cases) which will result is lots of lost stone material.

Yes, the #60 and #220 are the grits of the truing stones, you would want the 220 for the stones you will be getting. These type of truing stones are all very similar.

A pice of glass and some 220 grit wet/dry sandpaper will also work but can leave 220 grit particles imbedded in the waterstone, that could be very damaging to a razor.

The best method I have used for lapping waterstones has come in the form of a Atoma 140 diamond plate. For the finer stones you will be using a Atoma 400 would be ideal.
 
Thanks once again guys for clearing this up. Ill check out the tile rubbing stone heavyhanded. Good to know because I hate waiting for UPS. it will serve for now. And Jason sound advice as always. Ill get the 220 Naniwa. Is the coarser stone for courser hones or for fixing heavier dishing?
 
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Missed your earlier post Jason. Ill get the 220 Naniwa. Is the 60 grit meant for coarser hones or it meant fixing deeper dishing more quickly?
 
Regarding the tile rubbing stone: I respect HH's opinion and I'm sure it works for him. However, I tried it on a waterstone and I made maters MUCH worse. Because the tile rubbing stone is so small, it doesn't have the ability to "auto flatten" by touching the entire waterstone at once. Instead, you need to have skill in seeing what parts are too high or too low and selectively using it on the high spots. I apparently do not possess that skill.

Once I decided to use my DMT XXC on that stone, I was able to get it back to nearly flat all the way around in just a few minutes. I'm sure I took some life off of the XXC, but but oh well. It just means I'll get an Atoma 140 a little sooner. :)

Brian.
 
bgentry said:
Regarding the tile rubbing stone: I respect HH's opinion and I'm sure it works for him. However, I tried it on a waterstone and I made maters MUCH worse. Because the tile rubbing stone is so small, it doesn't have the ability to "auto flatten" by touching the entire waterstone at once. Instead, you need to have skill in seeing what parts are too high or too low and selectively using it on the high spots. I apparently do not possess that skill.

Once I decided to use my DMT XXC on that stone, I was able to get it back to nearly flat all the way around in just a few minutes. I'm sure I took some life off of the XXC, but but oh well. It just means I'll get an Atoma 140 a little sooner. :)

Brian.
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Definitely have to be careful when lapping with any stone, good point about the size of the tile stone. I generally keep a carpenter's pencil handy and make a grid several times when flattening, helps quite a bit to see how things are progressing. Alter the pattern frequently.

Also, I cannot recommend enough the practice of moving around the stone as much as is practical when sharpening. For most sharpening this will pay off in much longer time between flattenings, and on other stone types or sandpaper, it spreads the swarf around more, so less chance of the stone plugging or even slowing down as you work. On SiC stones it is invaluable because they will dish, and are a bit tougher to flatten than a waterstone. Some of the softer waterstones can actually dish while you work on a single blade and really cause trouble on tools with a pronounced belly.
 
Regular DMT plates work fine and can be found for around $50. Don't spend extra on the "extra flat" versions! I also use a piece of granite with wet/dry sandpaper to flatten, it works well and is a cheap option.
 
Ryan J said:
Missed your earlier post Jason. Ill get the 220 Naniwa. Is the 60 grit meant for coarser hones or it meant fixing deeper dishing more quickly?
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Yes, they also have a 24 grit iirc but that is only for very coarse stones. They are not a ideal flattening stone though, they are undersized and you will eventually need to use a large lapping plate.
 
I saw a youtube where the guy flattened his stone with the back side of a ceramic tile. Looked pretty slick. Has anybody here tried that?
 
I thoroughly disagree about flattening stones with finer grit causing them to glaze and "not cut." On some stones this may occur, but on every stone I've tried it on that it would make sense to try it on (only final finish stones for razors, for instance) it does have a beneficial effect. The cutting does NOT stop; merely slows and gives a finer resulting surface.

This works exactly the same way when grinding in a machine shop with a surface grinding machine. If the wheel is dressed coarsely it will cut rapidly and freely but leave a rough finish. If the wheel is dressed finely it will be capable of only finer/lighter depths of cut but leave a very much smoother finish.

It is most helpful on stones with a very strong binder like oilstones or the harder JNats, often called "hard" stones, as they will hold the abrasive particles in place and there will be a more rounded/flatter abrasive particle presented to the workpiece, rather than a sharp pointy particle. This means that cutting will be slowed but surface finish will improve. The particles will still cut, as they are still harder than the workpiece, except that they will cut shallow wide troughs rather than narrow deep ones, and if you go too fine on the stone surface it may require a bit more pressure to cut.

Most water stones will not benefit as much from this as they are "soft" or friable enough that rather than cutting with the flattened particles, they will just pull out of the binder matrix and the stone will take on its normal texture and characteristics automatically. They will cut finer for a very short period until this occurs though. The same will happen if you dress them too coarsely, they will cut fast and leave a rougher surface finish until they self-regulate by releasing abrasive from the binder matrix.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Definitely have to be careful when lapping with any stone, good point about the size of the tile stone. I generally keep a carpenter's pencil handy and make a grid several times when flattening, helps quite a bit to see how things are progressing. Alter the pattern frequently.
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I don't want to belabor the point here, but I think it's important to say why this didn't work for me. I *did* use a grid pattern than I drew on the stone with a pencil. I re-drew it 4 or 5 times while trying to flatten my Nubatama 150. I removed the entire pattern several times, but was left with a stone that was less flat than when I started. The problem for me is that the tile rubbing stone is so small, it just rides over the entire surface of the stone. So if it's high in the middle, the stone just rides up the hill to the high spot, then down the hill to the low spot, all the time removing both stone and pencil marks, but not changing the overall profile of the stone. Again, it's because it doesn't overlap the stone being flattened. The reason flattening stones work is that they can contact the entire surface of the stone at once so they wear down the high spots until the flattening stone is flush to the stone being worked. The tile rubbing stone definitely does not do this.

Now obviously HeavyHanded makes his work for him because he is more experienced and more skilled than I am. I have a funny feeling he could level a Norton India stone with a chunk of concrete he found on the side of the road. :) But for someone like me, who isn't at all experienced in flattening... it's a disaster.

Brian.
 
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