Flattery or Rippin Bastids?

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lu2236

Don't mind me, I ride the short bus.
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One thing is sure to stir up some traffic - find a copy of a famous maker's knife on the market for less. Sometimes way less. Post pictures of the cheap POS with a rant complaining about the lost business, lack of morals, etc. And never defend the price point as being affordable for the average guy on the street.
Well, let's take the case of the Vtech Titanx vs. Chris Reeves' Sebenza. I have no argument they are casual look alikes, or CRK makes a better knife, or that 10,000 forumites with Sebenzas are planning to visit me on their next trip thru Missouri. With blood in their eye.
I don't believe Vtech/Moteng is going to take ANY business away from Mr. Reeves. I never saw a Rolls kit car nose on a VW stop a real Rolls Royce purchase. The difference in market price is too significant. I do agree that IF this knife was a titanium framelock at $150 it might have an impact - but that's not what's going on here. Other makers are doing that, have done that, and will do that in that price range or better - check out Warren Thomas. (Hooo, I like those big hex screws. Very macho.) That is the nature of competition! Nobody bitched when Chevy brought out the Camaro to challenge Ford's Mustang - and they were close in price. Yes, they were different, like in 2 doors, long hood, short deck, big V-8, buckets, floor shift, 8 track, must I date myself even more?
So how similar can a knife be before it's a ripoff and offends out mutual sense of right and wrong? There's not much there to work with, after all. A blade profile and grind, a handle profile and decoration, pins/screws, lanyard holes. Makers are working with a limited canvas compared to an auto, or even a chainsaw. They put their idea IN the steel, like S30V, titanium, etc. And it seems their are plenty making a living at "embellishment," which is the owner's lack of appreciation for the way the maker sold it. Hmmm. And some mighty nice work it, too. I guess I don't get it, tho: it's morally impure to copy, but it's OK to change?
Isn't this a great way to examine our character?:D
 
I think there can be a general case describes for what may happen. In essence, if left unchecked this process can destoy the market and companies producing quality goods.

It goes like this,

1) Companies produce a quality product, it becomes known, there's a demand for the product at a normal price.

2) A copy comes in, "hijacks" the looks, and reputation that was built in the first step. Initally on dumb people fall for it. Then it gets greater and greater market share.

3) The initial company than no longer can make a profit for there item, and it's dropped.

I think Sal of SPyderco described this very situation concerning new models they come out with, the have a short window before a knife is copied and their market for that knife become eroded.
 
I think a knock off is when one company or person tries to use another's reputation or brand recognition to sell his own products or to make a profit. In most cases the knock-off is very low quality, but that's not necessary. If people know the Sebenza and it's reputation, than selling one at 1/3 the price is good enough for many poeple. I don't know if VTech is trying to do that but a lot of their knives look very similar to existing designs. I've never heard of VTech until you mentioned them so I did a search. I couldn't find out what steel they used or what country they are manufactured in.
 
V-Tech's use of the word "TITAN" gives the impression of titanium being a major component when in fact it is just a coating. Could some buyers be mislead by that? You bet they can.

Paul
 
Originally posted by lu2236

So how similar can a knife be before it's a ripoff and offends out mutual sense of right and wrong?
Click to expand...

Similar enough that you can immediately tell what knife they are knocking-off.

Knock-offs tell me a couple of things about companies, they have no imagination/creativity and no ethics. I wouldn't buy anything from such a company.
 
Unfortunately one of the benifits of the technological world we live in is manufacturing equipment can be purchased at low prices, and all you need is a someone to program, someone to put the blank in the machine, and a finished part will pop out.
this has destroyed american manufacturing, and will wreak more damage until low wage countries get whats coming to them as well.
Custom work takes time, talent and ceativity. it takes nothing to imitate, and undersell the people that created the product in the first place. I sympathize with the people creating these wonderfull products.
 
Capitalism, anything goes, as long as you make a dollar:barf:
 
All cogent remarks. I work in an industry that actually requires boring look alike products and which gets it's share of knockoffs from overseas. So far, the reputable stuff lasts because reputable people specify them. And the junk stuff is bought by some who want to spend the least possible. They never seem to go away, but many learn better. It's a quality thing - better stuff lasts longer when matched to the job.
Of course, it makes half my job trying to educate those who think they know and those who don't know at all. And trying to be low bidder on top of that.
That said, yes, if it first looks like the big name, it's an unimaginative ripoff. In the long run it becomes just another style, then a stock item. Long term - it may not even survive the marketplace, and that may have nothing to do with it's real utility. This is a fashion industry right now. Buck is selling out it's 3 blade stockmans, etc, after 20 years. I'm told they are no more. Must be all those gorgeous Sebenzas taking up market share!
 
I don't know if it's relevant to this thread, but I stopped in at Wallmart yesterday and seen that they had just got in a new shipment of Winchester f/b's. Curious, I examined one. Evidently, Winchester has licensed its' name to a Carolina Knife Co. (IIRC) based in Oregon. The blade tang reads "Made in China". Actually, it's a nice looking knife, and for $14, I'm sure Wallmart will sell tons of 'em to people who think they're stealing a quality Winchester blade. (NO, I didn't buy one :barf: )
 
I have problems with Chinese stuff on political grounds. Considering Sheffield England owned the American market place for decades in the 1800's shows the long term competive market is truly global.
 
What I find really annoying is how some catalog companies which should know better portray this stuff as equal to the originals. In an ad for a CS Tanto knock-off one said "compare to similar knives selling for over $100.00" and for an Emerson CQC-7 knock-off one said "who wants to spend over $100.00 for a tactical folder?" Wierdly, the people who make knok-offs of the Cold Steel Tanto seem to think it is the CS handle which makes a knife a tanto. :rolleyes: Others even name their knock-offs with the same name as the originals.
 
I agree with Benjamin. Even knock-off dealers should at least know something about knives. I saw a knock off the the Buck Nighthawk but with a tanto blade in a BudK catalog.

"Don't let the agressive razor like serrations and tanto blade fool you into thinking this is your average hunting knife..."

Balisong knock off:

"A genuine $200 butterfly knife can be yours for only $3.95."
 
Originally posted by Raptor
What's wrong with a $15.00 Scimitar??
Click to expand...

Is it poetic justice for the Black Talon?

Hey, the Black Talon is no longer on their website! Hooray!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by PhoulPlae
I agree with Benjamin. Even knock-off dealers should at least know something about knives. I saw a knock off the the Buck Nighthawk but with a tanto blade in a BudK catalog.
Click to expand...

Another disturbing thing is that these companies advocate bringing junk that would break if actually used into survival situations. Although this example isn't exactly a knock-off, one catalog recommended their junky imitation shuko (ninja hand claws) for climbing trees and even for cops to use them on stakeouts. :rolleyes:
 
Some thoughts to share.

There is a difference between a "moral" copy and a "legal" copy. Patterns cannot be patented, only the textures & the "look". The copy companies are skilled at finding loopholes and limitations to patents and can copy designs (patterns) legally. An American company copied our Dyad and left the Boye indent off of their copy of the Dyad making it a "legal" copy. (loophole) They also have more funds to play in court than Spyderco so we gave up the model.

Copy companies make much higher margins and sell greater quantities than the original designers, (no design & R&D costs, which are considerable) so they have more money with which to win or avoid law suits.

It is much easier to make money making copies of successful designs. It is the design that carries the product. A good quality product with a poor design will not survive, but a good design will survive.....first in the original with good to great quality and then as a copy with poor quality. I just saw a copy of the Spyderco Delica in the local supermarket for 3.95. Local gas stations have baskets of Spyderco Ladybug copies with a signs that say "compared to Spyderco at $25, our price $2.95" (both the knives and signs are made in China, shipped complete and ready to sell). In all cases, they have moved far enough away from our textures and round hole trade mark to be "legal".

The copy companies are difficult to locate so follow up is difficult to impossible....not to mention expensive.

Do the copies hurt sales? Of course! Anyone that says otherwise has not experienced the lost sales from copies.

Often it is the dealer that is carrying both the original and the copy. They say; "This Spyderco (etc) is a great knife, one hand open, good steel, etc, but very expensive. This other model is NOT AS GOOD, but it is half the price and has the same features".

The sad part is that it will continue and there is nothing that can really be done about it.

Low cost foreign manufacturing in China, etc. is forcing American manufactures to relocate sourcing or go out of business. Isn't the Jeep made now in China? Doesn't "Made In America" now include Canada & Mexico (North America)?

You would be AMAZED & SHOCKED to know what "Made in America" products are actually made with foreign parts.

Deception is a very strong marketing tool.

sal
 
Let the buyer beware...

I know how you guys tend to fume at pattern copies and patent infringements...

But I think they are completely different markets... Does one really think that consumers are so dumb as to think that a three dollar knife is really on par with a thirty dollar knife? or even a three hundred dollar knife?

I say... bring on all the copies. Those in the know will continue buying the high quality, high priced knives... those who buy junk will either learn to buy high quality knives or do without. Consumers who buy the junk do not know enough to buy the better quality stuff and will thus buy another peice of junk... it's not a matter of that dollar being taken away from a quality manufacturer... that dollar would just have been spent on another piece of junk anyway.

Let's take automotive air filters for example... everyone tells me that K&N filters are the best. I however, cannot seeing spending fifty bucks on a filter so, no matter how good it is, I ain't buying it... if there is a $20 dollar copy, I might buy it, but if there ain't, I'm just buying a cheap no-name filter anyway.

What does that have to do with knives? Everything... Knives to us are damn near sacred... to most others, it's just like my goddam air filter...

I say bring on the copies, bring off the ripoffs. Just cause there are no copies does not mean that the quality manufacturers will sell more, nor does it mean those who would pursue quality will be lured away by cheap prices and low quality. I think what will happen is that more people will learn the difference between quality and price.
 
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