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Flicking a Sebenza?
- Thread starter GarageBoy
- Start date
MelancholyMutt
Doggy Style
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2002
- Messages
- 3,906
It'll last a lot longer than your wrist...
Flick the sebbie all you want man. I've been flicking mine for years. The stop pin is very durable. Don't even worry about it man. Others will tell you it's bad for the sebbie but the sebbie is the only knife that can handle this type of "abuse" You can replace the stop pic any time. Have FUN!
biogon said:
The guy who sent it in had other issues than just flicking if I remember correctly and admited to it and appollogized after it was all said and done. I believe he still uses sebenza's. As far as the he "thinks" part of your comment. I am not sure what line of work you are in but if you know your product and the behaviors of the materials and have the experience you can ususally tell for certain what was done to cause what damage.
Now those that choose to do something that voids the warranty then try to "get away with it" may whine but most won't. I and several friends have "hard used" sebenza's for years now and have never had a problem.That may be true.
Most makers and factories agree that flicking isn't exactly the best thing to do. I think it's stupid, and I never do it. For example, Elishewitz says that it's damaging to the knife. By the same token, Darrell Ralph and Strider says that their knives can take it.
But I'd rather have a "hard-use" product where the maker/owner/factory doesn't complain too much about how it's been used. Especially when it's company policy -not- to do something, that makes me all... irritated.
I lose... trust in that company.
A decorated, collector's item? Sure, baby it. A serious-use knife? Naw.
Anyhow, I've had enough of Chris Reeve's attitude of "whenever the user doesn't agree with me, the user is wrong" that I'm turned off Sebs. Nice knife, just not for me. There are lots of other nice knives out there, some production, and some full-on custom.
This means more Sebs for you.
-j
Most makers and factories agree that flicking isn't exactly the best thing to do. I think it's stupid, and I never do it. For example, Elishewitz says that it's damaging to the knife. By the same token, Darrell Ralph and Strider says that their knives can take it.
But I'd rather have a "hard-use" product where the maker/owner/factory doesn't complain too much about how it's been used. Especially when it's company policy -not- to do something, that makes me all... irritated.
I lose... trust in that company.
A decorated, collector's item? Sure, baby it. A serious-use knife? Naw.
Anyhow, I've had enough of Chris Reeve's attitude of "whenever the user doesn't agree with me, the user is wrong" that I'm turned off Sebs. Nice knife, just not for me. There are lots of other nice knives out there, some production, and some full-on custom.
This means more Sebs for you.
-j
biogon said:
Have you have never been told this in person by CRK - or are you just makin assumptions of "whining" based on somebody elses word or experiance? In the example mentiond Chris stood up to an actual mis-use of the knife. The original and often quoted portion of "flicking" did this was not really the reason behind a denial of a free repair- it was the bending/"tweaking" of the locking bar by the user. The use of internet whining seems to carry enough weight to some that they use it to complain whenever they can or add to issues even when the original issue is dead. Sounds like your irratations are more "Sympathy Pains" than anything else. The logic of the rules are "not to do something" bothering you should be real intersting when you go buy a lawn mower or other tool... there are a whole lotta don't do it or do it at your own risk items out there. Go ahead and buy a car- run it into a wall - or even a road hazard and see if the manufacturer will warrantty it. Yes there are some unconditional warrantees out there but even those have limitations. Most Supposed unconditional warrantee do not guarantee an exact replacement - just something similar in the current production.Even if they could make one. So if ya' break your 700 dollar straight handle BM it will be replaced with a 400 current production version, its all relative.... :yawn:
Knife company's for the most part put the caution- sharp- don't cut yourself somewhere in the literature or at least it is assumed that you know not to do it- they are telling you "not to do something" or is that different?
BTW ...do you own/use any CRK , did you sell them due to the warranty issues of your own? or others?
I owned both a small and large 2000 Seb.
I wrote in asking politely about three things: clip orientation (is it possible to have the shop do a tip-down conversion), overly sharp thumbstuds (they gave me blisters), and an overly tight lockup. (requiring a screwdriver to release.)
Chris Reeve's company told me, basically, that tip-up is God's True Way, that the skin on my thumb was just too soft and I should build up calluses, and that the lock is meant to be tight. No soup for me.
Tip orientation is fine, but at least they could have been more polite about it.
The other two issues...I've had similar problems with an Al Mar SERE 2k, and a Strider SnG, and in both cases, the response was, "Send it in and we'll fix it. Sorry for the inconvenience."
*shrug*
That's my experience. I wasn't thrilled by the attitude, which told me that they had enough sales that one unhappy customer (that would be me) was insignificant and they couldn't care about it. Maybe it was a bad rep. Either way, I'll never buy another Chris Reeve product.
Regarding warranties: Yes, I know. Strider's unlimited warranty, apparently, only applies once in the case of willfull and destructive stupidity. But it's unlimited. Same with Swamp Rat and Busse. Which is nice, because it means that they stand behind their product. I know I can rely on them. Even Benchmade, Buck, Emerson... they have limitations on their warranties and I know them -- so I don't use them outside their purpose.
I buy a knife to use both on a daily basis AND in case something goes very wrong. I don't care whether it'll be repaired or fixed -- but I DO care that the company has enough confidence to say, "Our product will stand up to 99.9% of the things you do to it. The other 0.1%, "We'll be impressed that you broke the product and we'll fix it." I'm not encouraged by a product that -advertises- hard-use and has limitations like that.
As I mentioned, both DDR and Strider encourage you to flick their framelocks. Albeit, they use stud-stops, and... dare I say it... aren't built to the same tolerances as CRK?
I own a Honda Civic. I expect it to get good gas mileage with a wide range of activities. If it had a warning that "If you drive this car hard, you will get 2 mpg" then I would be worried. I understand that if I mod it, and screw with the chip, that's different.
If I bought a Jeep Wrangler, and it had a warning that "If you drive this car off-road, we won't warranty it", I would be worried.
There is an expected range of reasonable activities for any given product. It just happens to be that it is MY OPINION that occasional flicking should be within the range of functionality of a product and that it is my OPINION that I am insulted that I should be told not to do something I feel should be within the range of expected operation.
What I'm getting at is that while flicking is a damaging thing, I expect hard-use knives to be able to take it. And if they don't, I have other options.
I don't have much more to say on this issue. I'm tired of Chris Reeve's attitude, and I don't really want to have to think about them any more than I have already done. I have PERSONALLY gotten an unacceptable response.
If you want to defend them, I don't mind. Many people like Sebs.
I PERSONALLY will not buy them, because of my PERSONAL experience with their company. Everyone else can do and think whatever they want.
-jon
I wrote in asking politely about three things: clip orientation (is it possible to have the shop do a tip-down conversion), overly sharp thumbstuds (they gave me blisters), and an overly tight lockup. (requiring a screwdriver to release.)
Chris Reeve's company told me, basically, that tip-up is God's True Way, that the skin on my thumb was just too soft and I should build up calluses, and that the lock is meant to be tight. No soup for me.
Tip orientation is fine, but at least they could have been more polite about it.
The other two issues...I've had similar problems with an Al Mar SERE 2k, and a Strider SnG, and in both cases, the response was, "Send it in and we'll fix it. Sorry for the inconvenience."
*shrug*
That's my experience. I wasn't thrilled by the attitude, which told me that they had enough sales that one unhappy customer (that would be me) was insignificant and they couldn't care about it. Maybe it was a bad rep. Either way, I'll never buy another Chris Reeve product.
Regarding warranties: Yes, I know. Strider's unlimited warranty, apparently, only applies once in the case of willfull and destructive stupidity. But it's unlimited. Same with Swamp Rat and Busse. Which is nice, because it means that they stand behind their product. I know I can rely on them. Even Benchmade, Buck, Emerson... they have limitations on their warranties and I know them -- so I don't use them outside their purpose.
I buy a knife to use both on a daily basis AND in case something goes very wrong. I don't care whether it'll be repaired or fixed -- but I DO care that the company has enough confidence to say, "Our product will stand up to 99.9% of the things you do to it. The other 0.1%, "We'll be impressed that you broke the product and we'll fix it." I'm not encouraged by a product that -advertises- hard-use and has limitations like that.
As I mentioned, both DDR and Strider encourage you to flick their framelocks. Albeit, they use stud-stops, and... dare I say it... aren't built to the same tolerances as CRK?
I own a Honda Civic. I expect it to get good gas mileage with a wide range of activities. If it had a warning that "If you drive this car hard, you will get 2 mpg" then I would be worried. I understand that if I mod it, and screw with the chip, that's different.
If I bought a Jeep Wrangler, and it had a warning that "If you drive this car off-road, we won't warranty it", I would be worried.
There is an expected range of reasonable activities for any given product. It just happens to be that it is MY OPINION that occasional flicking should be within the range of functionality of a product and that it is my OPINION that I am insulted that I should be told not to do something I feel should be within the range of expected operation.
What I'm getting at is that while flicking is a damaging thing, I expect hard-use knives to be able to take it. And if they don't, I have other options.
I don't have much more to say on this issue. I'm tired of Chris Reeve's attitude, and I don't really want to have to think about them any more than I have already done. I have PERSONALLY gotten an unacceptable response.
If you want to defend them, I don't mind. Many people like Sebs.
I PERSONALLY will not buy them, because of my PERSONAL experience with their company. Everyone else can do and think whatever they want.
-jon
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 3,527
I've had the pleasure of communicating with the CRK folks via phone and email on several occasions and have found them to be courteous, understanding and quite professional. I doubt my experience is unique. I wonder just how "polite" your communication with CRK was given the attitude you've demonstrated in this thread. In other words rudeness and/or presumptuousness often beget the same and with good reason. So I say that to say this: Fine by me if you don't like CRK products, there are plenty of us who do. You stated that you didn't want to "think" about CRK. Well then quit coming to the CRK forum. That should help you reach your goal. BTW, have a good day. 
biogon said:
So you hang out on thier forum for what reason?
I don't usually hang out in forums that I don't care for the product of...
They would fix a tight lock-up and the thumbstuds would more than likely cause a blister if used for "flicking" A use it was not designed for to begin with and yes you can get a model T in any color as long as it is black....as the tip up carry in a seb.... sounds more like you did not like the answers than a "tude" Now having said that I want a non serrated GB 5 and they won't do it! I won't slam them for it I asked and they said no- it does not make them wrong...or attitude prone
- Joined
- May 12, 2001
- Messages
- 2,947
GarageBoy said:
GB,
All I can add to this thread is that many users do flick their knives, but most makers or producers I have spoken with don't encourage it as a method for opening. On liner locks and framelocks, my experience with flicking (in the past) is that the lock bar can travel over further than normal. This probably is not good for the longevity of a tight lock up.
Some knives were meant to be opened hard - autos, assisted openers, and maybe flipper type knives. Perhaps they have some different mechanics that don't affect their long-term performance.
In my experience, CRK is incrediably courteous and polite when it comes to my questions and worries. Judging from what others on this forum have said, your experience seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
Yes, the lock on the sebenzas have a lot of tension. They are designed this way. But if you need a screwdriver to release the lock then obviously there is something wrong. Very sticky locks do happen on occasion. It happened to one of my sebenzas years ago. I needed 2 hands to release the lock. I emailed CRK about it, they politely said there's something wrong, send it back. They rehardened the face of the lock bar so that it would stick less. It came back 2 weeks later perfect and is still perfect now, 5 years later.
How many Integral locks do you know of that even have the titanium lock bar face hardened? Instead they have to compensate by changing the angles on the blade tang so that less titanium makes contact with the steel. Otherwise it would be too sticky.
Some people do have issues with the pointy thumbstud but you are not supposed to put your thumb on top of the stud, but rather behind it. That is why it is in the shape of a cone.
Its fine that you feel this way about CRK and that your experience was not what you expected, but I think if you give them another chance (especially concerning the lock if it actually is that hard to disengage) then you may be plesantly surprised.
Yes, the lock on the sebenzas have a lot of tension. They are designed this way. But if you need a screwdriver to release the lock then obviously there is something wrong. Very sticky locks do happen on occasion. It happened to one of my sebenzas years ago. I needed 2 hands to release the lock. I emailed CRK about it, they politely said there's something wrong, send it back. They rehardened the face of the lock bar so that it would stick less. It came back 2 weeks later perfect and is still perfect now, 5 years later.
How many Integral locks do you know of that even have the titanium lock bar face hardened? Instead they have to compensate by changing the angles on the blade tang so that less titanium makes contact with the steel. Otherwise it would be too sticky.
Some people do have issues with the pointy thumbstud but you are not supposed to put your thumb on top of the stud, but rather behind it. That is why it is in the shape of a cone.
Its fine that you feel this way about CRK and that your experience was not what you expected, but I think if you give them another chance (especially concerning the lock if it actually is that hard to disengage) then you may be plesantly surprised.
biogon said:
I am sorry that you were treated with less than full consideration by whomever may have replied to your questions.
But hey, bro, honestly, ya ever break in a Gen.1-Gen.3 SnG manually, without the graphite-on-tang or other such shortcuts?
You'll get an incredibly strong thumb -- as well as the pre-requisite callouses -- then, for sure !
Allen
aka DumboRAT
DumboRAT said:
Ohyes. For the 1st Gen it was Good Times Were Had By All. I used two hands and a tape-covered screwdriver, gave it 1000 cycles of the old college try, and then I gave up and sent it when it only got tighter and tighter. Came back better.
This is before there were any tricks or shortcuts. And I had to walk 10 miles, in the snow, uphill BOTH ways to do it.
But then again... we're talking Strider vs. Seb, here, yea?
-j
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 12,249
Actually, I did call CRK probably almost 10 years ago when
I missed the modification deadline of previous models to
pockets clips.
At the time time I wanted it tip down, we had to agree to disagree.
Now it doesn't matter, because I carry them either in a pouch, or
clipped against the seam in the front pocket. I no longer
carry any knives clipped to the back pocket.
Two events switched me to front pocket carry, about 3 incidences
of tip up knives opening in the back pocket. Two ripped car seats
and about $240 in repairs to those seats.
I missed the modification deadline of previous models to
pockets clips.
At the time time I wanted it tip down, we had to agree to disagree.
Now it doesn't matter, because I carry them either in a pouch, or
clipped against the seam in the front pocket. I no longer
carry any knives clipped to the back pocket.
Two events switched me to front pocket carry, about 3 incidences
of tip up knives opening in the back pocket. Two ripped car seats
and about $240 in repairs to those seats.
biogon said:
Agreed, brotha. Agreed.
As I tried to demonstrate to fellow brother ajnova, although both are very high-quality tools and are similarly priced, the differences in intended use is just so obvious from the finishing point.
Allen
aka DumboRAT