Flippers

Lorien

Lorien

Nose to the Grindstone
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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I read an Instagram post made by an iconic knife maker this morning, who announced he will no longer take part in one of the premier shows in the USA.

His rationale for his departure from this show was the lottery system and his assessment that the majority of buyers in attendance are there to purchase a knife, only to resell it for a profit immediately, and that collectors are either paying the inflated price or simply no longer attending the show.

This could be an interesting and illuminating conversation, and I look forward to reading your thoughts on the topic.
 
not the same guy. Perhaps this is a movement?

what are the arguments for and against the lottery system, as you see them?
 
I am not sure of the maker you are mentioning ... but I do understand and have considered the issue you bring up.

I know for most people whether they make knives of some other product ... mostly are just glad to sell their product and don't care who or why they are bought ... as long as they make their money.

I have found a handful of knife makers and even gunsmiths that do custom work or custom guns that do care about this ... they make a product that they put their heart into and want them to be used not to sit in a safe or be shown off and never used.

I relate to that ... and I know I will take flack for this but ... I see it on here even whether it is a sprint run release or small sales ... most that jump on these and usually get the highest percentage do so and either never use them ... just buy them to show off ... or the even worse IMHO buy to turn around and resalefor a profit because of the demand ...

and therefore many that truely want a product to USE ... can never get them without waiting and paying a high premium for said item on the aftermarket.

I'm not sure the best answer to solve the problem ... but it is frustrating ... and if I were a maker it would definately annoy me that I worked so hard to make a product to perform well ... then know the majority will never see use.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
I'm not sure what kind of markup most 'flippers' aim to gain from their activities, but my feeling is that the immediate inflation of the maker's prices, and the lottery system itself, is part of what's fueling what I have regarded for years now as a bubble.
 
There are a number of Prolific Makers that have made this statement in the past 48 hours....that and the absolute sewer Vegas has turned into.

I saw this happening YEARS AGO...quit Vegas in 2006 and Blade in 2014...unadulterated BS.
 
The lottery system is nice in principle and in theory unfortunately in practice is is easily and as we are told heavily abused. Flippers will manage to have dozens of entries into a lottery when the lotteries are supposed to be 1 person 1 entry. The best solution I have seen put forward has been switching from a lottery to an auction for show sales this allows those who would pay well over the normal price to a flipper to pay it directly to the maker. This would discourage flippers somewhat as the profit margin would shrink with every new bid. This could also be valuable market research for a maker as it gives him an idea of what people value his knives at to know where to price them when selling directly to an individual.
 
Lorien said:
I'm not sure what kind of markup most 'flippers' aim to gain from their activities, but my feeling is that the immediate inflation of the maker's prices, and the lottery system itself, is part of what's fueling what I have regarded for years now as a bubble.
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3-10x's.......and have the audacity to make that kind of profit right in front of the f'n Maker right after getting it in-hand!
 
I'm a collector. Anyone who thinks collectors are unimportant to the knifemaking industry is delusional. Every show venue has a problem either similar or identical to Vegas. Even the highly regarded Art Knife Invitational - almost all prices are fixed and the winner is chosen from a lottery drawing. This is where dealers and others exchange lottery ticket drawings, giving he who has the most tickets for a particular maker a much greater advantage - and when you walk around the room to see who has won the knives, you see an incredible number going to dealers, so let's remember that if one considers "flippers" a problem, some "good" dealers are gaining a significant advantage just as does a flipper who does it in Vegas. Chronic flippers are not collectors IMHO. They are closer to dealers. While I am at it, I might as well mention that I consider that fine gentleman Dave Harvey of Nordic Knives, who stages his own Invitational, to be the most ethical dealer I know.

HOWEVER, I doubt that I am alone in how I approach collecting, in that I have a primary, pretty much fixed collection for one maker, and then would continuously buy other stuff that fascinated me, keep for awhile or forever( 1 - 5 years, perhaps) but eventually (not always) sell. There are a few people in Blade Forums that know that when this happens, great deals can be had from me on some dynamite stuff.

BUT I reserve the right to place my name into any lottery (for me, mostly Nordic and AKI) for knives I know I would keep, at least for awhile.
HOWEVER, if I win one I wanted and the guy behind me taps me on the back and offers me $6k over and above the purchase price, I might just sell it, though not having intended to when I won it. I use this as an example, because it happened to me a few years back on an $8k knife I had won in an AKI lottery drawing.

I am not sure I have made any kind of point at all within this discussion, but enjoy the discussion nontheless. Much has been written on this topic and always will be.
 
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betzner betzner I have already said the discussion is somewhat pointless and mostly venting for any of us. I think there is a distinction from flipping a knife and from being offered without advertising and accepting said offer. It is hard to turn down $6k profit that you weren't even after particularly if that is enough for you to pick up 2 knives now instead of one. That guy who just out of the blue says hey Ill pay you double what you paid might do so because that knife all the details are a perfect match for his/her dream knife.
 
Lorien said:
I'm not sure what kind of markup most 'flippers' aim to gain from their activities, but my feeling is that the immediate inflation of the maker's prices, and the lottery system itself, is part of what's fueling what I have regarded for years now as a bubble.
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Lorien, I think what you see as a bubble has to do strictly with tactical knives, which have overwhelmingly outpaced the non-tactical customs market (no bubble there, lol) in the last 10+ years. Lotteries and flippers may be partially causal, but seems to me any bubble relates to the sheer number of tactical makers, the number of units they produce (lots of 'em) and how so many makers become the fair-haired kids, albeit for a rather short time, typically. And tacticals sure aren't gonna go away, but that bubble will eventually burst, as all bubbles do.
 
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betzner said:
Snip...
I am not sure I have made any kind of point at all within this discussion, but enjoy the discussion nontheless. Much has been written on this topic and always will be.
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Yes Bob, you certainly have:

I'm a collector. Anyone who thinks collectors are unimportant to the knifemaking industry is delusional
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P PirateSeulb If perhaps you thought my comments were directed in any way toward you, not so, as they were directed to the discussion itself, and to anyone who thinks that collectors of knives are somehow a problem and that they the users occupy some special status amongst knife buyers.
 
betzner said:
Lorien, I think what you see as a bubble has to do strictly with tactical knives, which have overwhelmingly outpaced the non-tactical customs market (no bubble there, lol) in the last 10+ years. Lotteries and flippers may be partially causal, but seems to me any bubble relates to the sheer number of tactical makers, the number of units they produce (lots of 'em) and how so many makers become the fair-haired kids, albeit for a rather short time, typically. And tacticals sure aren't gonna go away, but that bubble will eventually burst, as all bubbles do.
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correct, I should have stipulated the segment I was thinking of, which is custom tacticool folders
 
No I just felt compelled to post a reply to your post as I understand what you are saying and can agree with you. I want to be clear that to me a flipper and a sale of opportunity are distinctly different in action.

I sold lots of stuff for profit on eBay back in its early days but I wasn't out there buying new products to sell on eBay. Look at some history of things people called foul on in the past outside the knife community. Tickle Me Elmo people went out and bought up stores inventories and put them on online auctions to sell it for 2x-20x more because it was the must have Christmas item. This has been repeated numerous times with gaming systems the PS2, PS3, NES mini, & SNES mini had production numbers below demand or the output level of production couldn't keep up with demand. These things sold for excessive markups and people foolishly allowed it perhaps due to foolish promises to children or losing site of what the holiday is and focusing on the material gratification who knows.
 
PirateSeulb said:
betzner betzner I have already said the discussion is somewhat pointless and mostly venting for any of us. I think there is a distinction from flipping a knife and from being offered without advertising and accepting said offer. It is hard to turn down $6k profit that you weren't even after particularly if that is enough for you to pick up 2 knives now instead of one. That guy who just out of the blue says hey Ill pay you double what you paid might do so because that knife all the details are a perfect match for his/her dream knife.
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with all due respect, I disagree that engaging in this discussion is pointless. Forums are designed so that people can discuss issues related to their interests, and whether or not solutions to problems are found doesn't diminish the value of conversation.
 
I teased Tony once at a show, asking if he thinks he'll sell all his knives pointing to the bowl with slips of paper. He got a big grin and said as long as he has the same number of slips as knives they're all sold. I said what if he draws someone for a a knife who really wants a different one. He said they always take it and encouraged me to put my name in. I told I love his work but can't afford it, thank God for his work with Case. He said I could always keep it for a while and then sell it. Then he told me about his early days when he traded a knife for 12 pizzas and kept track with hash marks by the phone and the pizza guy tried to short him... Better to have Knfe Flippers than to have to count pizzas.
 
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