Florida appears ready to decriminalize kids carrying knives in schools

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The Palm Beach Post runs a page in the paper that lists legislative action being conducted.

Twice now I have seen mention of a bill (that seemed to be succeeding) that would make it legal for kids to possess knives in schools. It would be up to the schools whether to punish students who possessed knives in school, but at least they would not be arrested for it.

I don't think it's been passed into law yet, but my vague memory of it is that the bill had good chance of getting passed. I think this is a great step in the right direction for common sense regarding knives and law.

Anyone have any more information about it? Does anyone know how/where to find online information about it via the state's website? I haven't had a chance to search it out and I'm a bit busy at the moment after I finish this post...

Cheers,

-Jeffrey
 
in ca it is a felony to have a locking blade on a school campus. i cant imagine why floridians would want their kids to have knives in school. weapons carried illegally already cause enough problems. given the judgement capabilities of high school age students, allowing them to lawfully possess knives on school campuses is absurd.
just because i am a collector does not mean i think there should be no laws governing the possession or sales of knives to certain people, juveniles in particular.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
in ca it is a felony to have a locking blade on a school campus. i cant imagine why floridians would want their kids to have knives in school. weapons carried illegally already cause enough problems. given the judgement capabilities of high school age students, allowing them to lawfully possess knives on school campuses is absurd.
just because i am a collector does not mean i think there should be no laws governing the possession or sales of knives to certain people, juveniles in particular.

Weapons carried illegally already cause enough problems. Fine.

How would weapons carried legally, i.e. not used in crimes, add to any problems? By definition, those not committing crimes with their legally carried knives would not be a cause of problems.

The utility of having an edged tool cannot be denied, and the truth of that utility does not vary or change in any way based on venue. So a kid may find as much true and legitimate utility to having a knife on him in school -- or on his way to or from school -- as any adult might find in the course of his or her day.

When I was in high school, I always carried a knife, albeit a small one (a Buck Gent). I also had a Tekna Extra Edge on my keychain (neither knife's blade measured more than 1.5 inches or so). Do you attribute the same evil mind-control powers to knives that some attribute to guns? My knives must have been defective in their expected ability to make me commit crimes I would otherwise not have committed.

Trouble kids will find ways to make trouble, with or without knives. It is time to stop acting as though anyone who possesses a knife is waiting for his moment to become a murderer. It is time that having a tool returned to not having this idiotic stigma.

You apparently do not see what I believe is common sense about this issue, so I guess we are not going to agree.


-Jeffrey
 
You two are both missing the point: this bill, as I understand it, would simply decriminalize having a knife in school.

Example: if little Johnny in the third grade forgets to leave his Swiss Army Knife at home, he can still be suspended or even expelled, depending on the school's or school district's policy; however, he won't be perp-walked out of the school and into Juvenile Hall, and have a criminal record until he's 18.

Trust me, the paranoid moms of Florida will make sure that knives aren't ever allowed in the classroom. But at least punishment will be limited to school disciplinary action, not criminal charges.

This makes a lot of sense. There are plenty of laws on the book already that can be thrown at kids who bring knives to school with ill intent, criminalizing the mere posession of one was a ridiculous overreaction.
 
It's still a good thing that the state will not intrude on what will return to being a behavioral question, like school uniforms, or chewing gum.

Eventually, without the criminal stigma attached to every knife, more people and more schools may realize they can overlook a small, useful blade.

This is a matter of changing people's perceptions, one step at a time.
 
Yes, but we have platinum members who see eye-to-eye with such a ban, and who agree with prior restraint, and considering carrying a potential weapon the legal and moral equivalent of using one aggressively and criminally?

I find that distressing, the way I find gun owners who support background check waiting periods and "assault weapons bans" distressing when they state so on gun boards... :grumpy:

-Jeffrey
 
I find it distressing as well, but I'd rather have them here, talking to us, than having no other outlet than the lying media and pandering politicians to support their preconceived ideas. At least here they can acknowledge that knives have some validity, even if we don't all agree on the limits of that validity.
 
I am an Eagle scout ( 1970)
I always carried a knife to school.
That was back in America.
What a country she was !:mad:
 
Don G. said:
Well, I grew up in Florida and I carried a pocket knife my entire time in jr high and high school and never killed anyone. A knife is a great tool and I'm rarely without one. As well as my Surefire light, too!:D

BTW, knives are not a problem....improper use of a knife maybe, but that's not caused by the knife.
Old fart !!!!!!!!!!
 
peacefuljeffrey said:
Yes, but we have platinum members who see eye-to-eye with such a ban, and who agree with prior restraint, and considering carrying a potential weapon the legal and moral equivalent of using one aggressively and criminally?

I find that distressing, the way I find gun owners who support background check waiting periods and "assault weapons bans" distressing when they state so on gun boards... :grumpy:

-Jeffrey

I'm not going to argue on either side of this issue, but I would like to point out that a person can like something (guns, knives, pink and yellow striped shirts, etc) and still see the potential good in having some loose regulation on that thing. Just because you like it, use it or collect it doesn't mean that you are automatically required to support nothing less then complete deregulation (or non-regulation, depending on how much there already is) of that item.

Anyway, getting back to the topic.

I think this is a great step in the right direction. As has been pointed out a few times already, this should begin to reduce the sitgma of a knife as an tool of crime and allow people to see it as a tool of many uses. That being said, I don't think the general public is ready for allowing knives in schools yet, but if laws like this keep being passed in other states then one day we may see that change.

We may not have a ton of say in how the country is run, but get out there and do what you can. Nothing will change if people just sit on forums talking about what should happen rather then trying to make it happen.
 
in my opinion, the world is a very different place than the one in which i grew up. i will concede this may be due to getting old and cynical, however i also see daily what people, in particular students, are willing to do to each other. 'pocket check' robberies are common in our public high schools. what if these students were legally able to carry a knife? the victim is just as likely to be hurt as the criminal. i just can't see the justification. as for knives as tools, what could a student be doing that he needs one? scissors for art and scalpels for science should be provided by the school.
perhaps in florida this law makes sense, however in l.a. i hope to never see it.
 
Do you attribute the same evil mind-control powers to knives that some attribute to guns? My knives must have been defective in their expected ability to make me commit crimes I would otherwise not have committed.

i think you may have missed my point. mind control? stop it. sure, many people carry items such as knives and guns legally and have no intention of committing crime. i believe in allowing those students who do commit crimes to legally possess a knife in their school aggravates the problem. any criminal with a weapon is likely to feel empowered by it.
since we can't read minds to determine who is bad and who is good, limiting carry in specific places is, i believe, correct. i would never say knives and guns should be totally outlawed for all civilians, that is absurd.
i think we have may have gone too far in limiting weapons in some areas, airports, venues and stadiums, etc. but i still agree with a no tolerance policy in our schools.
 
The problem with "no tolerance" policies is their tendency to spread. Once people get the idea that, say, knives are something that need be banned somewhere, it's a short step to thinking they may as well be banned everywhere.

This is not hype, it is the reality we have seen in one English-speaking nation after another. Reversing this thoughtless mindset in even a small way is a step in the right direction.

By the way, please reread our responses: we are applauding the law butting out of school business. We are not insisting every school allow immediate, unrestricted carry of what might become a weapon. Let each school district and each school principal make that an administrative decision, in line with local and current conditions.

In a small, rural Florida school, carry of a worn old slipjoint is one thing. In an urban New York ghetto, carry of a large dagger is something else. Lets get away from zero tolerance = zero thought and make decisions based on the needs of the community, and subject them to discussion and adjudication rather than statutory judgement.
 
I don't think that anything, weapon or not, has any sort of "evil mind-control' powers. I do, however, think that in the hands of certain people weapons may have "evil empowerment powers", which translate into the person feeling a sense of supperiority which causes them to put common sense aside for a while and do some things that they (hopefully, at least) would not normally do.

I can completely agree with the fact that there are specific places where people have no need for a knife. However, Morimotom, I have something which I would like to address about your post.

You made a point as to why knive ownership should be controlled for convicted criminals, but you simply tacked the 'in schools' portion onto the argument. I would like to hear your specific reasons why you feel that people who have not been convicted of any crime that would bar them from owning a gun (using these standards because there are no restrictions on knife ownership for criminal convictions) should not be allowed to carry an otherwise legal knife in a school.

In your first post in the series (saturday at 5:04) you made a good argument for why a knife may not be a good weapon for self-defense, not why knives shouldn't be allowed in schools. Also, if I am reading the post correctly, you argue that studens should not be allowed to carry a knife in schools because you can see no justifiable use for them where the school would not already be providing a cutting tool. What about cutting a sandwitch at lunch? You can make an argument that it should have been cut before the person left in the morning, but that's splitting hairs. Also, what about opening various bags, boxes, evelopes, etc.? I can't speak for every knife owner on this forum, but those are the main tasks of most of my knives. If the principle if 'if you can't define a use for it you shouldn't be able to carry the knife here' were to be used and required tasks more specific then what I listed then it would follow that carrying a knife would be banned in almost every place outside of a person's house.
 
"I wear a wristwatch whether or not I have an appointment to keep, and I carry a pen and/or pencil because I am a literate person whether or not I have a specific writing task ahead of me, and I carry a knife because I am a human and not an ape."

-- James K. Mattis Z"L
 
in response to your questions, dune, i agree we can't split hairs. no law is intended to cover every instance, nor can it. anyone can imagine many benign scenarios. ( and the response following yours would get this response from me: comparing knives and pens is like comparing apples and kangaroos). why would a student need to open boxes at school? bags and envelopes do not require a knife. 'need' to cut a sandwich? how about plastic-ware type knives, i'm sure no law would ever limit that. i also think comparing what an adult does to what a juvenile does is not a valid analogy.

i would be interested to see the wording of the statute, if swiss army type knives are in the same category as liner locks. i think everyone would agree that some knives are designed as tools, and others are designed as weapons, regardless of what we choose to use them for. just because i use my cqc7 to open mail does not change what the design was intended for.

i work in gang infested areas, which include many schools. statistically, most gang members are juveniles. i agree that no law is going to keep a criminal from carrying a weapon. however l.a. and ca laws, and school district policies, give us authority to take weapons, including knives off school campuses. good judgement also must be at work. the 'letter of the law vs spirit of the law".

but not all kids are good. if a statute limits a law abiding student from carrying that old schrade in return for allowing the system to punish a gangster for being caught with a locking blade, in my opinion, so be it.

again, we can what if this to death. i just can't see what good can come from allowing minors to have weapons on school campuses.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
any criminal with a weapon is likely to feel empowered by it ... but i still agree with a no tolerance policy in our schools.

Why do they feel empowered? Because -were they resort to violent action - the possession of a knife in a situation where others are not likely themselves to have knives gives them a clear potential advantage. If many people had knives, obviously the criminal would not feel empowered in the same way. The expectations of inequality, of advantage/"power" over disarmed peers is what fuels such behavior.

I don't like regulations at all, but I will concede that, carefully-designed, they can exert a positive moderating influence on people. For example, theoretically you might have the right to carry a 7" folding knife to school; yet I think that a vast majority would agree that is far in excess of what is required for mudane tasks. Thus, a school length limit of 3" makes sense to me.

I'm afraid I can't agree with a Zero Tolerance policy, even in schools. Historically people carried knives to school without it resulting in carnage and mayhem. A blanket ban, especially when combined w/ Zero Tolerance, is ridiculous. Do you really think a psychopath is going to be deterred by the prospects of using 4" scissors rather than a 2.5" folding knife? Besides, the illicit use of <2" knives and multitools is rather limited.

I think the reason many behave so poorly around knives/weapons in general is because they have no experience with them. People would be more polite if they were used to an "armed" society. It would deter crime. But when people who have little/no experience w/ things + minds full of glamorous rubbish gleaned from entertainment media are suddenly exposed to them, they often react poorly. Access and acclimatization aren't the problems; they're the solutions. Approaching things w/ an inexperienced, "adolescent" mentality is what results in problems.
 
i think you are comparing adults and minors. we are not talking about an armed society. rather authorizing minors to be armed. carnage and mayhem may be a slightly strong words, however i would bet you have not been inside an l.a. high school recently. not all laws apply in all areas. i concede i have never been to florida and don't know what the culture is like in their schools. my points were as they relate to where i live and work.
 
bear with me while i go off topic. i'm sure it goes without saying, but i'll say it anyway. i have fairly recently started posting more responses, and i really enjoy reading opposing points of view. i've read many thought provoking threads and appreciate all the forums. even if we only agree to disagree, i still love it!
 
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