Florida School Knife Incident

S

Safety Guy

Joined
Mar 9, 2001
Messages
1,794
I hope no one minds my posting this here, but maybe some of you haven't heard of this incident at Estero High School in FL. A young honors student accidentily left a KITCHEN KNIFE on the floor of her car while moving the day before. School security spotted it when she parked in the wrong spot. She was arrested and had to make $2500 bail. She was suspended and will not be able to attend her grad ceremonies. It's been on the nationwide news, although I haven't had time to see any of that. I heard of it here at BF.

Go to Politics Arena forum and KingKnives has posted the whole shebang under "Policy lands top student in jail..."

Links will allow you to send email to school administrators, the local paper, and to participate in a poll by that paper.

The principal insists that the "zero tolerance" policy should be followed no matter what. The fact she did not know the knife was there, nor did she mean to do anything wrong simply doesn't count.

To quote Principal Bode: "A weapon is a weapon is a weapon."

Now if that doesn't get your blood boiling, I don't know what will!

Karl
 
"A weapon is a weapon is a weapon."

YES IT DOES make my blood boil! That falls into my bin of utterly ridiculous statements!

It's a simple category error, knives are, first and foremost tools. The fact that they can, have, and will double as weapons is beside the point. Zero tolerance is simply impractical, undefendable, and absurd. I'll give my position on this. A knife is ACTUALLY a tool and POTENTIALLY a weapon. The knife starts being ACTUALLY a weapon when it is either 1) carried with the intention of using it as such, 2) in fact used as such. Similarly we would say, maybe, a baseball bat is actually a device for hitting a baseball and potentially a weapon. IS NOT a weapon until it is used as such. We could also use a pencil, lug wrench, screw driver, roll of quarters, or many other things as examples of the same thing. If a bat is actually a weapon then your regular junior high and high schools have a large stock of them. Not only that, they encourage playing with them. If a lug wrench is actually a weapon, then most everyone with a car is carrying a weapon, lots of high school students are immediately in trouble. If a pencil is actually a weapon then students are virtually required to carry several of them to each of their classes. So I think it's a simple category error. I think if the knife itself is a kitchen knife, a non-locking folder, a small folder, or something like that; and you can show or get a good idea that there was no intent to use it as a weapon and/or no intent to actually be in possession of it, then the zero tolerance absurdity is just that--ABSURDITY.
 
Thanks, Aphthartos. Yes, all that you wrote about has been mentioned, and I'm sure the principal knows this. But he's a "zero tolerance" kinda guy!

Please go to KingKnives' thread with links and send your love and kisses to all the "whoms it may concern."

Don't know if it will help, but since we're not in Florida, it's kinda impractical to go demonstrate in front of the school or Board of Education offices.

Karl
 
Sorry if what I said was redundant, I didn't read the other thread.

"But he's a "zero tolerance" kinda guy!"

In other words just throw reality and good reason out the window and keep repeating his original position, no doubt. Oh well, seen it all before. :\

 
PC and Zero tolerance will be the ruination of this Country as we know it. It may be only Florida and only a kitchen knife this time but soon it could be Anytown, USA and a large screwdriver.

Remember what they said about Europe 60+/- years ago. When they came for the Poles I said nothing ...

The rest is history.
 
The poll results also show people's comments. I can't believe that some folks actually stick up for the principal! One person said there were other circumstances which weren't reported and which the principal could not talk about, but in the principal's statement, there was absolutely no hint of anything other than "zero tolerance must be enforced." There was nothing suggesting "there's more to this than we can mention right now."


The Rutherford civil rights group is telling the school board to let her attend Tuesday night's graduation, or they will take this to Federal Court!
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Karl
 
How about all those terrifying Tenor Saxophones or Trombones? Aren't those deadly weapons? How many of those have you seen on school campuses? Also found on ever teacher's desk is a really large, deadly stabbing implement...A scissor!

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NRA Lifetime Member
 
"PC and Zero tolerance will be the ruination of this Country as we know it."
Well said Nimrod! The whole PC thing makes me sick - to me it is nothing but fascism sugar coated! I very often say how much I hate the whole PC BS thing. Of course I see some people thinking "oh so that means you are anti black/gay/
semitic/freedom/equality/etc, etc. NO!!!! I totally believe in freedom and an individual's rights wether I like them or not. PC is an attack on liberty and rather than bringing down barriers it creates divisions and resentment.

 
So does this school have a cafeteria? Must be interesting eating there (I'm picturing a lunch lady tearing a loaf of bread into pieces with her fingers and teeth)

------------------
William Callahan

"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without
hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd
never expect it."
-Jack Handey

I'm one of those wierdos who likes Zytel.
 
Everytime one of these silly misapplications of "zero tollerance" policies, I write a nice letter to the prinipal of the school in question. Twice now I have received personal replies thanking me for my careful, wise response and assuring me that as a result, the policies in question will be reconsidered.

What do I say?

I start by sympathizing the the difficut task of administering a large school these days.

Then, I ask them to consider what lesson their actions taught to their students. These people are, afterall, educators and everything they do should be planned to teach a lesson to their students even if it's not taught as a lecture in a classroom.

The immediate response may be, "Don't bring weapons to school." But, hasn't that lesson already been taught? If not, why not? If so, then is this rather extreme punishment of one otherwise upstanding student who made an honest,unintended oversight really the best way to reinforce that lesson?

What message do children receive from this? I suspect that it is: America is a land of opportunity where if you work hard, apply yourself, study, stay in school, and keep out of trouble, everything can still be taken away from you if you make even the smallest of harmless mistakes.

I suspect that the message students receive is that their teachers and school officials are not thinking, reasoning, intelligent people, but are mindless drones.

Children are not stupid. They know it's wrong to bring a knife to school, but they also know that it's wrong for a student who has worked hard and done well to be so severly punished for a simple mistake in which no harm was done. They know that what was done in this case was not right under the circumstances. How can your students now trust you to do the right things, and to give them right advice? How can they come to you if they have some personal problem and need sincere advice and not just strict policy mindlessly enforced? How can they come to you trusting that you'll do the right thing if they become aware of a potential problem in your school? And, by extension, how can they trust any other authority?

There's a deep difference between respect and fear. Students will fear you and will fear other authorities if they fear being severly punished for even the slightest mistake. But, ff you want your students to respect you and to respect other authorities, then you have to show them that you have the kind of wisdom and courage that warrents respect.


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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
Like I said in the other thread in Community- what do these teachers and other workers in the school do when there's a party?? What do they cut a birthday cake with?? It's just like the BS at the V.A. where I work...can't even have a 1/2" blade on the grounds...but look in the nurses lounges and break rooms and there's large nasty steak and bread knives...and they don't even put them away, they just leave them sitting out on tables (with door open and easy access to anyone!)...and that's safer than me carrying a small blade on my person??
 
This is the kind of thing that makes me really mad. If you take knives out of the hands of good people, the oly ones who have them a criminals. Zero Tolerance? This guy(principal) needs to get laid. I would sue the school system if I were her. Not being to be able to attend graduation is retarted. I can understand if she was a problem child, but a regular kid? Besides, a kitchen knife in her car is not the same thing as a concealed weapon on her person. If the Security Guards could see the knife, It's Not Concealed! This is a nother case of people with nothing better to do. I have never busted someone for having a kitchen knife in thier car. If it was bloody, or if the person made idle threats or something to that effect, I could understand action against them. Oh I feel a headache comming on. Must go take a chill pill!

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Lanning L Kann,SSgt,USAF
89th Security Forces Sq
ToyLumina.jpg
 
IMO rules are not meant to be written in stone. The principle should have the sense to know that this was a harmless mistake, talked with the student, reminded her that knives of any kind are not allowed on campus and moved on.

Is this principle totally without the ability to reason. If this is the type of person that we have running our schools, heaven help our kids.

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Keith

AKTI Member #A001338
 
And we wonder why our children don't trust the good advice given by adults!!! It is good to have a "zero tolerance" of violence, but mistakes do happen! It is totally unfair to honest children who make such mistakes, just like the gun bans. Until we as a nation, and as parents take control of our rights and our children, instead of leaving it up to daycare centers, and the "system" to teach our children and protect our rights, we will continue to have these type of occurrances, and things will not improve! This is ludicrous! How could we have let things get so out of hand?!

Dennis
 
IMHO principle Bode needs his *** kicked along with anyone involved in this stupidity.

Please do not place all people in the education field in the same "boat" as these dumb asses.

Some of us have a brain and use it for more than just something to hold our ears apart.

This is truly PATHETIC.

Thanks for the post so we will know about all the stupidity that is going on.

This should be a wake up call.........

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***
teacher
****
 
Words cannot express how much I regret having to defend the SOB.

But, we know why this principle acted as he did. We also know that, if our little honor student or one of the other students had intentionally or inadvertently scratch another student, that the poor victim would run to their parents, and the school system would be facing a multimillion dollar lawsuit the following day. Yes, Mr. Juror, this principle knowingly allowed a child to bring and retain a weapon in his school; and, his negligences has caused another child to be scarred for life, that is why you must award so and so $X millions to ensure that this wrong is addressed and that right message is sent to those in authority.

We like to litigate, and we have created a major industry around litigation. You're wrong if you think it's John Doe who wakes up one morning thinking that zero tolerance is the way to go. More than likely, he is just reading a binder on his latest insurance quote.

We cannot afford to be reasonable, becuase our legal system is not reasonable, and our our legislature is not reasonable, and our juries are anything but reasonable.
 
You could have something there, not2sharp.

Of course, she has already been punished with arrest, nine hours in jail, and a $2500 bail. I'd think that's enough.

Hope Kingknives gives us an update soon.
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Karl
 
And you thought we were tough in the UK! Sucks!

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
Litigation may soon start taking the opposite turn. What about suing for loss of civil rights and wrongful imprisonment? (BTW, I'm not a lawyer.) It should be fine to have in one's possession a completely legal item. It is only illegal or intimidating when used in an illegal or intimidating fashion. When will the schools stop restricting things on campus? Can you picture a student who strangles another student with his coat? OK. all coats are weapons and cannot be brought to school. How about if someone takes out their shoestrings and uses them as a garrote? OK, all shoe strings are illegal. Why not make the whole shoe illegal. Bare feet everyone. No, that won't work, people have fungus on their feet that could spread.

See where this is going...a truly no-win scenario. So why punish the innocent? The school should use common sense. That should be a the core of what they teach. As a manager, I look for common sense in my employees more than most any other element. Schools, by actions like these, are showing that things should not make sense, rather, the tyrannical actions of the administration rule supreme. This is what I want my kids to learn (sarcasm just applied at its strongest level)!

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NRA Lifetime Member
 
Mr. Gollnick

Chuck, your wise thoughts once again make me proud to have your aquaintance!

How easy it is, for us to respond with red-faced, passionate and aggressive defenses to such apparently idiotic disregards of our liberties. We roar with anger at the unjust treatment of our own like a sailor in a bar who has had the honor of his country assulted. And that voice should be so loud and disruptive that no one could ignore the injustice.
But, also, there must be the voice that is truly heard by those who can effect these policies. These people, in the case of virtually all educators, are not there for the money or the power or the glory, but for the satisfaction of feeling like they have made a difference in the lives of the young people that their lives touch. Your eloquent words are truly more powerful to these than many screaming, hormone laden patriots could ever be.

Thank You!

Rick
 
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