FMA and Rapier?

[Ken Cook]

Let me start by saying that I've always wanted to get into FMA but never lived near enough a school to even consider it.
However, I AM a member of a Living History Re-enactment group. We do the 30 Years War and fight (UN choreographed, dulled but real blades, no shlagers, foils or armor.) with Rapier and Main Gauche. Mostly the Germanic style ala Silver and company, but a few members go with the Italian school and one is trying VERY hard to re-create the Spanish Mysterious Circle. (Not much luck, too little source material.)
At any rate, my group was performing at a Renfaire this last week and I met a pretty interesting guy. Bladesmith and FMA Instructor.
Completely disregarding the rules, I got a sword and gauche for him to use, (which he claimed to have never used before, and by his questions I believe him.)
We lightly sparred a bit until we got the feel that each was capable of defending himself and then went at it full bore.
He was VERY fast and VERY good and managed to show me a couple of extremely interesting moves that will help me kick *ss in our inter-group dueling competition.
I did manage to get a clean "kill" on him, but for someone who had never handled Rapier and Gauche before I was HIGHLY impressed with his ability.
Given a couple of weeks to learn the tools, I think he could be the equal of most of the people in the re-enactment troop.
Now, my question is,
How much does FMA and Rapier/Gauche work have in common? Do they share any history?
Did FMA evolve from Spanish technique with rapier and dagger?
This has REALLY got my curiosity up and I'm more determined than ever to find someone that can teach FMA in my area.

------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!

 

[Myers]

FMAs include a segment of training known as "Espada Y Daga" that is said to be of Spanish derivation. While there has been some debate on the topic, I believe that the method this draws upon was likely the Spanish use of the Cut & Thrust sword with dagger combo rather than the rapier. As I'm sure you are aware of, the rapier was not a military weapon. While there were likely "gentlemen" carrying rapiers during the Spanish occupation of the Phillipines (though this could also be debated, given the time period in question) it is more likely that the locals would have interacted with the military contingent that used C & T swords. Most FMAs have an "edge" rather than a "point" emphasis (even when doing E y D), but it is not a great leap to adjust to using the point. The lines of attack and defense are fairly universal. When holding similar weapons there are only so many ways to move.

Keith

------------------
"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt

 

[Ken Cook]

Actually, the Rapier WAS a war weapon.
It was used extensively during the 30 Years War (1618-1638) by all parties concerned, and was VERY prevalent among Dragoons and Cavaliers.
Among Germanic troops, the Pappenheimer Rapier was pretty much standard issue weaponry. The "Pap" was kind of the precursor to the cup hilt rapier of Three Musketeer fame. A transition between the swept hilt and the cup hilt.

I find it surprising how many people consider the Rapier to be primarily a thrusting weapon.
In actual practice, thrusting makes up very little of the usage in Rapier and Dagger. (or Espada y Daga in spanish.)
The majority of cuts with the Rapier are Draw cuts.
This is most commonly executed with a "Moulinette" which is a circular motion resulting in sinking the edge into the target.
After the blade is "hacked in" the depth and length of the cut is increased by using a drawing motion as you step back from the attack.
Among the Italians, the Stramzone was VERY popular, this was a swiping cut made with the tip, usually intended for the eyes or just above the eyes, a cut to either area resulting in blinding the opponent so that a thrusting kill could be more easily executed.
Given your statement that FMA is more "edgy" than "pointy," it seems to support my suspicion that there IS a connection.
After all,
The Spanish called the Rapier the Espada
So, FMA basically acknowledges a connection with Rapier and Dagger!
Where can I find a FMA instructor near Hot Springs Arkansas?
I NEED THIS!

Out of curiousity,
What time period was the Spanish Occupation?
That might shed more light yet.


------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!

 

[Smoke]

Well the Spainish occupied the Islands for a few hundred years. Understand that many FMA schools do Espada Y Daga differently and that the founders didn't have the length of either the rapier or the battle rapier. I don't recall ever seeing a Stromatzione and passing the point and right of way aren't followed in FMA.

Also Espada y Daga is more of an advanced study, double sword being the highest. Although many feel that Espada Y Daga is actually the most difficult since a lot of folks will draw from their double stick skills to use double sword.

 

[Myers]

Ken:
A "rapier" can be defined in several different ways. Many sword collectors thru the years have defined it solely on the basis of the design of the hilts, rather than by the design of the blade or the usage. Works great for collectors, lousy for martial artists. The HACA guys define things differently, and I tend to agree with them. They define a "rapier" by the design of the blade and its usage. If it had an edge and was capable of a draw cut, then it qualifies as a Cut & Thrust sword and not a rapier. You might find strammozones (which cut with the point, not the edge), but you won't find moulinettes in the historical manuals put out during the hey-day of dueling. An actual rapier is pretty much strictly a thrusting weapon and would not fair well on the military battlefield. The Cut & Thrust sword was considered a "transitional" form, and as the blades became narrower the distinction between them and a rapier became less. There most definitely is a connection between Spanish swordsmanship and FMAs. Maybe I didn't make that clear before. Not only did the Spanish call the rapier an "espada" (which just means "sword"), but they referred to swordsmanship as "esgrima." Lots of Spanish terminology in the FMAs. Spanish influence in the Phillipines began in the mid-1500's and lasted I believe into the mid-1800's, which upon reflection, is definitely time enough to be exposed to most anything European. Still, given that there was significant influence on FMAs...and given that FMAs have much more of an edge emphasis than a point emphasis in their blade-work...it seems much more likely that it was Cut & Thrust swordsmanship and not the rapier that they are drawing upon.

Keith

------------------
"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt

 

[kgrubb]

Ken Cook wrote:

> How much does FMA and Rapier/Gauche work
> have in common? Do they share any history?

FMA is very weapon oriented, and the Filipines are a very martial culture. Unlike the Japanese, where swords were once illegal for all but the elite to own, EVERYONE in the Filipines has a blade, a cane, a staff, or some weapon. With that said, in most if not all FMA styles, weapons techniques translate to empty hands and vice versa. As such, an accomplished FMA practitioner can pick up a blade with which he/she is not familiar and likely wield it effectively.

> Did FMA evolve from Spanish technique with
> rapier and dagger?

Definitely some Spanish influence given their efforts to conquer Moroland. FMA dates back some 1500 years, at least.

> This has REALLY got my curiosity up and
> I'm more determined than ever to find
> someone that can teach FMA in my area.

Rec.martial-arts FAQ has some good advice on finding an instructor.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/

Certainly not next door, but there is a Guro Jim Mahan listed on the FMA database in Pine Bluff, about 80 miles from Royal.
http://www.pekiti-tirsia.org:8080/msql/FMA/Instructors/show.msql?id=499

If other members of your re-enactor group are also interested, y'all might be able to ride share and save gas. There's the Eskrima Digest Email list, if you're interested. Some VERY seasoned and experienced FMA players on there, including Guro Marc Denny, aka "Crafty Dog" of Dog Brothers fame. IIRC, it was Crafty who once wrote on the ED list about driving 4 hours for MA training because the instructor was so good.

Seminars can be a useful thing, but you need to apply what you learned right away.

Video tapes can offer a lot. My Punong Guro loaned me his copy of the late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's double stick video #1. I highly recommend it, and plan to get a copy myself. PG Sulite demos drills, at speed, with a partner, and in slow motion. It's the next best thing to having him there in your living room.

I'm probably gonna get all of Professor Presas videos for additional Modern Arnis training aides.


------------------
Ken Grubb
Bellevue, WA, USA

 

[Ken Cook]

Wow!
A lot to think about.
What you're referring to as a "cut and thrust" is what we've always referred to as a "sword rapier." Not saying one's right and one's wrong, just trying to match up terminologies.
Sword rapiers have hilts similar to the classic Swept Hilts, but usually have a "ribbon hilt" fashioned from bent flat stock rather than the round stock used to make the more common (and prettier IMHO) swept hilt.(Always exceptions to the rule here.) The difference, as you state, was in the blade. The Sword Rapier having a blade somewhere around 1.5 to 2 inches in width and tapering towards the point.
The rapier I refer to though, is the sword that most people think of when they say "Rapier."
Ring, Swept, or Cup hilt, untapered blade approxmiately 1 inch wide and 35 to 40 inches long.
Early Pappenheimer blades were of this "sword rapier" or "cut and thrust" design, but evolved to a lighter blade with a fairly unchanged hilt design.
So, yeah, I agree. The most meaningful way to define a sword is by blade type. Hilt is relatively unimportant. The blade determines the function. (You can put a Swept hilt on a Scimitar, but you're NEVER going to thrust with it!)

The Classical Rapier wasn't a widely used war weapon for very long. Pretty much the period of the 30 Years War. It w



------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!

 

[Ken Cook]

BTW Ken G,
Thanks VERY much for the information, I'm wheedling with the guys to make the trip to PB and check it out.
Kinda hard to do, most of them are even more broke than *I* am.
Swords are an expensive habit after awhile.

------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!