FMA Stick vs. Sword. Tell me. . . . .

[dayuhan13]

FMa stick techniques and sword techniques. Has your instructor taught you both? And do you know the difference?

Some of you might be curious why I have sword and stick as separate techniques. IMO, yes they are similar but not all of the concepts are interchangeble. Weight, length, the presence of a sharp edge/s and point, and sheath are factors that need to be kept in mind.

The weight difference between a barong with a 16" blade and a 26" rattan stick is significant. Imagine a 26" sundang or ginungting instead of the barong and the and the centrifugal energy another 10" of steel creates. It's tough to quickly redirecting something of that size and weight one handed. This supports the idea of training with kamagong or another dense hardwood. Such harwoods in 24"-28" length and 1"+ diameter best imitates actual blade weight. If you struggle with they heavier weight, there's no way you could efficiently wield a sword.

Everyone cuts thier sticks to thier preferred length which on average is @ 26", with the exception of Serrada eskrimadors. The very rare kampilan is the longest of the indigenous blades averaging 32" OAL. Sundang, talibons, and ginungting all fit the 26" criteria but they are hard to find and expensive. Commonly available swords are kris, bolos, and barongs. They rarely come close to 26" and usually average 22" and under. 4" isn't very much but keep in mind how fast and what it takes to move 4". One man's largo is another man's medio . . . and so on. It is much easier to go from the "in" to the "out" than vice versa. Train with different weapon lengths and don't get stuck with initial contact distance pre-set in your mind

I rely on footwork and parrying in defense. Force on force blocking isn't something I would consider with a sword but still an important skill. Failure to keep track of the edge/s and the point are the swordsman's demise. Most FMA practitioners have a tendency to "roll" thier stick during blocks. This is evident if you "present" your knuckles in the direction of a strike. Had it had been a sword instead, the edge would have been put in the path of the incoming strike and taken significant damage one possibly broken. Now imagine trying a supported cross block form an incoming #1 or #3 strike but with a double edged sword. Get the picture? Properly blocking with the flats or spine is an important skill that needs to be practiced and can only be done properly with a sword or trainer with obvious sword profiles.

How many of you have ever drawn your stick/s from a sheath attached to you? That's what I thought. The entire sheath factor is my weakest attribute. I have no problems with blades 10" and under but anything over 12", I'm awkward and inconsistent. I used to think my arms were too short but I think of all the men I have seen draw an 20" sundang efficiently, most were under 5'5". I guess I just haven't practiced enough. I can't imagine having to draw under high stress situations. I'd be much better off carrying my sword in my live hand but that defeats the entire pupose of the live hand.

Take all of the above mentioned and imagine yourself in the 18th century. It doesn't matter where. Is your current training enough to have kept you alive in combat. If it isn't, you owe it to yourself to change it.

Your replies, suggestions, criticisms, insults, hell, anything you'd like to post is welcome. This forum is getting stagnant needs some reviving. A little stimulation, conversation, and confrontation will do us all some good!

Dayuhan

 

[Dijos]

Originally posted by dayuhan13
FMa stick techniques and sword techniques. Has your instructor taught you both? And do you know the difference?

Some of you might be curious why I have sword and stick as separate techniques. IMO, yes they are similar but not all of the concepts are interchangeble. Weight, length, the presence of a sharp edge/s and point, and sheath are factors that need to be kept in mind.


Dayuhan

Yes.

The problem I see with sword techniques, is that I do not carry a sword. Also, "sword" is kind of a generic term. I do not own a Bolo, but I use a machete around the house. Ability to use point makes a big difference in the tool-If I had a bolo, I would prefer it over a machete, but I can still use edge techniques regardlesss of the lack of a point. Western fencing uses different moves, because their tools are different. I don't know where I'm going with this, but it is an interesting thought.--Joe

 

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

In Sayoc Kali, it is all blade all the time. Whether a sword/machete, or knife, all the training is based around the blade, not a specific impact type weapon. It is the same when I have trained with Kalis Ilustrisimo instructor Ray Floro, or in the Atienza family's Atienza Kali. The blade dictates certain dynamics that can be imitated by the stick but will not have the same effect in damage or opponent reaction.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Sayoc.com
www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[Benjamin Liu]

My primary art is the Bujinkan but I also trained in eskrima and occasionally still do . When training by myself I sometimes use my barongs or bolos and and practice drawing and cutting just as I do when training with a katana. IMO it makes no sense to train with a weapon you don't have or to have a weapon you don't know how to use. When visiting family in Illinois sometimes I'll be out all day in the woods or in the part of the yard with dense vegetation with my bolo. They don't pay anyone to clear the parts of the yard they want cleared because I'll do it for fun.

 

[Airyu]

Hello Benjamin,

I agree! You should always practice with the tools you will be carrying everyday (or at least have available). I commonly use a machete around the yard for clearing brush etc, and it resides in my vehicle. I have used my barong for the same type of work, but to beat on I just use a decent steel machete. I love tamishigiri practice with my katana! Although not a weapon I would normally carry, it gives you an excellent appreciation for the effectiveness of a sword! Do you practice other cutting exercises with your carry weapons, and "brush clearing" tools?

Gumagalang

Guro Steve L.

www.Sayoc.com
www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I mostly train with a bokuto/bokken and plastic or rubber knives though I sometimes use live blades to practice techniques. I live in the city so I don't have much stuff to cut. I usually cut 2 liter soda bottles full of water suspended by cord. I usually visit my family in the country a couple weeks each year and that is when I do all my vegetation cutting, mostly with my bolo and whatever survival knives I want to test. I actually cut a 1.5" tree with my Kris Cutlery katana. Yes, I know I'm not supposed to do that. I only did it once and limited the size of tree I'd test it on just to see if it could do that. I also use my knives for cooking and they actually work better than kitchen knives or at least the ones I have.

Many people don't practice cutting at all and a stick is far different from a blade. One of my friends, a shodan in Kendo and 1st kyu in iaido who was a student from Japan, unintentionally demonstrated that. He was very good but when I was doing cutting practice he gave it a try and knocked the bottle away with only a minor cut and let the sword go flying behind him. He was very skilled in sword techniques but had never handled a live blade. I had the same problem when I first tried to cut a bottle though I never lost control of the sword. I watched a student who was good at it do a cut and unconsiously picked up her technqiue and did it properly on my next try. The difference in what I did before and after that is so small I can't really tell what it is, I just do it correctly now. This was all with the katana. I never had problems with a bolo.

 

[Airyu]

Hello Benjamin,

I have witnessed many people from various arts who do fantastic kata with the katana, yet when challenged by 2, 3 or 4 tatami mats, rolled and made ready for cutting, almost kill or take a chunk out of themself!!

Form and function must be made into a cohesive whole in a practitioners training. You need to be able to cut, deploy, holster, open, maintain your weapon(s) etc. not only stand and duel/spar with your training partners.

so many stories so little time!

Train Hard, it is the Way!

Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc.com

 

[Two Sword]

Hello dayuhan13,

In Atienza Kali we train primarily blade first (sword, knife etc), or as if we are using blades.

You said:
The weight difference between a barong with a 16" blade and a 26" rattan stick is significant. Imagine a 26" sundang or ginungting instead of the barong and the and the centrifugal energy another 10" of steel creates. It's tough to quickly redirecting something of that size and weight one handed. This supports the idea of training with kamagong or another dense hardwood. Such harwoods in 24"-28" length and 1"+ diameter best imitates actual blade weight. If you struggle with they heavier weight, there's no way you could efficiently wield a sword.

We train with sticks and blades of all sizes. It’s the best way to cover all your bases. We will spar with sticks or aluminum trainers from 14” – 36”, very little protection at higher levels. Heavy weapon training I a must in our system, baseball bats (barong weighted) or pipes. You have to make sure your body mechanics are correct to save your joints and for maximum power delivery. Heavy weapon training is done from 30 mins – 1 hr. By the time you hold your fighting stick or sword they should be light to wield…(my street fighting stick when I was younger was a pipe).

You said:
I rely on footwork and parrying in defense. Force on force blocking isn't something I would consider with a sword but still an important skill. Failure to keep track of the edge/s and the point are the swordsman's demise. Most FMA practitioners have a tendency to "roll" their stick during blocks. This is evident if you "present" your knuckles in the direction of a strike. Had it had been a sword instead; the edge would have been put in the path of the incoming strike and taken significant damage one possibly broken. Now imagine trying a supported cross block form an incoming #1 or #3 strike but with a double-edged sword. Get the picture? Properly blocking with the flats or spine is an important skill that needs to be practiced and can only be done properly with a sword or trainer with obvious sword profiles.

Flat of the blade deflections is trained right away with trainers then with live blades. The transition to the stick is a lot easier than you think…. When using live blades your footwork becomes amazing.

You said:
How many of you have ever drawn your stick/s from a sheath attached to you? That's what I thought. The entire sheath factor is my weakest attribute. I have no problems with blades 10" and under but anything over 12", I'm awkward and inconsistent. I used to think my arms were too short but I think of all the men I have seen draw an 20" sundang efficiently, most were under 5'5". I guess I just haven't practiced enough. I can't imagine having to draw under high stress situations. I'd be much better off carrying my sword in my live hand but that defeats the entire purpose of the live hand.

We practice blade draw with long weapons…this makes it easier to draw shorter weapons. To go further we practice drawing our projectile weapon then our next weapon, both hands alternating or one hand consecutive. There have been instances, in my youth, when drawing a 22” pipe from a sleeve was helpful. We also use blade draw for attack intent detection…works pretty well.

You’re right; the best draw is having the weapon in your hand. You shouldn’t have to draw in a high stress situation; your detection of the trouble at hand was late.

Training like you are fighting with a blade is better than if with a stick. You can go one way easier than the other. If you are used to fighting with armor just take it off and see how everything changes. Use very light armor and go at it with sword trainers and see how that works. That’s how we train. Your combat reflexes will come up to an unbelievable level. That is the discipline of the blade. By the time you hold a stick you should be ok. Only targeting will have to change.

Alot of this has to do with every having to apply this stuff for real. Hopefully nobody ever has to, weapon fights especially with blades is a nasty thing...
Unfortunately we have seen some things resulting in our training method.

The power delivery of your sword should be able to completely severe a limb, with a stick, shatter bone. That is my goal in Atienza Kali.

Hope this helps you, feel free to ask anything....

 

[dayuhan13]

Originally posted by Two Sword
Training like you are fighting with a blade is better than if with a stick. You can go one way easier than the other. If you are used to fighting with armor just take it off and see how everything changes. Use very light armor and go at it with sword trainers and see how that works. That’s how we train. Your combat reflexes will come up to an unbelievable level. That is the discipline of the blade. By the time you hold a stick you should be ok. Only targeting will have to change.

Guro Carl Atienza,

Magandang umaga at kumusta ka. I am surprised and delighted by your presence hear at bladeforums.com. Though I see that you have been a member since Mar. 2003, I would like to say "Welcome" and that I hope to see you more often, not only here in the Filipino Combat Arts Forum, but in other areas as well. You and I share similar backgrounds considering we are both from immigrant Pilipino families, yours settling in NY and mine in CA, raised in less than favorable neighborhood in the 70's and 80's, and our martial training coming from family rather than other outside sources.

I would agree that blade training is far better than with a stick for all the obvious reasons as long as it is reminded that not all techniques transfer very well from one to the other. My example would be punyo thrusts which can cause considerable trauma from a live blade but fall well short from blunt tipped weapons. Not that I discount the validity of the technique which I akin to a boxer's jab. Your comments regarding punyo strikes towards soft targets as well as toward body of mass/upper torso would be most appreciated.

Gamagalang at maraming salamat,
Dayuhan

Thanks! To everyone who has taken the time to post thier thoughts on this often inactive board.

 

[Two Sword]

No problem...

It very nice to see someone analyzing the FMA the way that you are. Not many people have your concerns...and they are very valid concerns.

When you say punyo I am thinking you mean hitting with the other end of your stick or the handle butt portion of your sword (or maybe the hilt if you sword has one).

Truthfully I try not to get into close range with a sword mainly because of the high probability of double kills (both practitioner thrusting or slashing each other) which is common. In mass attack the if you get too close the probability of someone holding on to your clothes or you is high and can be very damaging to you since it doesn't take that long for you to get swarmed if held in one spot by the mass. Bladed weapons are great from keeping closers at bay.

But it does happen. Punyos are done at very close range where empty hand skills are used. I seldom would TRY to smash the fist or go after nerve strike to the arm (radial, ulnar). But most of the time I go right into targeting the head. Mainly crashing the butt of my weapon into the eyes and ears. I found that very effective...body and torso targets I tend to stay away from (solar plexus, collar bone) I have had a difficult time making them work. I will use the free hand to elbow, eye gouge, slap (ears, groin etc..)

Hopefully this helps!

 

[lmanalo]

Greetings,
Just wanted to throw in my two cents
In Atienza Kali, we definitely practice with both stick & blade so my transition between both is almost seamless. Atienza Kali does make a difference b/w stick & blade techniques though they both follow basic foundations of body mechanics & footwork.We have practiced sparring with both- for blade we do both non-contact or blade trainers. In such, we make sure to notice our flat of the blade deflections so as not to lock blades in real-world situations.
Also, in our training we use blade-simulation sparring using a heavier padded stick to simulate the weight of a sword. That extra weight does play a factor in the fight! Excess motion really tires you out.
As for blade drawing, we even have a sparring exercise just for that which really stresses us out!
Guro Carl, from the very beginning of my training, has emphasized real world application. I have always trained cutting with all types of edged weapons (bolos, machetes, swords, knives, etc.) usually on cardboard or styrofoam to ensure proper cutting forms.
As for the draw, as most have pointed out- nothing beats having the blade already in hand. I agree especially when it comes to a sword. However, if I needed to have a sword drawn in a confrontation- I would have brought a firearm. I usually practice drawing a knife of some sort since most likely that is what I would carry in a day to day situation
It's great to see such discussions re: blade & stick! Keep training hard!

 

[dayuhan13]

TUSOK not PUNYO!!

Originally posted by Two Sword

When you say punyo I am thinking you mean hitting with the other end of your stick or the handle butt portion of your sword (or maybe the hilt if you sword has one).

Ay naku! My Lolo would have slapped me if he knew I just mixed up techniques and worse yet, in Tagalog! Sorry!

What I meant were tusok strikes using the stick vs. blade. Even though I totally blew my post, you thankfully brought up some worthwhile food for thought.

I as well try not to get into close range with swords which ultimately results in a combat fustercluck. I don't know If I would consider a punyo strike first when in corto or in a "clinch". So many other alternatives seem to be better choices, i.e. low line kicks, knees, live hand. As always, better to experience them all than to find youself lacking in a confrontation.

I've often thought of how or when the punyo strike came about. Was the technique prehistoric/pre-Hispanic or perhaps a relatively contemporary addition? Looking at my own collection and many other examples of historical and regional Pilipino sandata, there are few swords which possess a hilt let alone a pommel that could deliver a strike without the possibilty of sustaining damage itself. IMO, it's unlikely that a mandirigma would consider knocking the enemy with the intricately carved pommels on thier barongs or kampilans. Cracking or splitting a handle would compromise the "battle-worthiness" of a sword that more than likely was only weapon carried into battle. I suppose repair was easy but such damage during battle would render them defenseless. If I were in thier shoes, I would be hard pressed to use the technique with the former in mind.

I do find punyo strikes quite effective with the knife especially if the pommel is designed to maximize the effect. A solid "skull-crush" pommel transfers energy quite well creating damage wherever contact is made. I've also considered striking with the guard, if sturdy and large enough, for less lethal alternatives.

Guro Carl, Benjamin, Airyu, Dijos and others. Please share your thoughts and opinions on tusok strikes and the existence of the punyo strike.

Dayuhan

 

[Two Sword]

Tusok (thrusts) are obvious with a sword so we won't get into that.

I have had success with thrusts to the body and face with a stick. The face is a great target, devasting when there is no head gear. But..

The stick has to be perpendicular (as much as possible) to the target or you will loose alot of power in the stirke (waste a move). It needs a fine accuracy.

My younger brother (Guro Darryl) often fights withw a 36" stick and stops alot a attacks with a simple thrust to the face. Heads whip back as if hit with a bowling ball. The damage it does tot he fencing mask is crazy. Sometimes we have a hard time taking the mask off because its so bent up.

Its not my main attack with a stick but can be very sneaky and powerful but accurate..

 

[Tonie Nichols]

As Kali has been taught to me we're talking concepts. Obviously there are huge differences between sword and stick but I don't carry a sword. However I do carry a right hand cane and a left hand Civilian. The concepts apply, the applications vary.

 

[K Williams]

Doing solo training with a sharp sword definitely increases your concentration on technique! The last thing you want to do is screw up, because it will mean a trip to the ER. I have a bolo from Kris cutlery that's about 23". It's balance is definitely different from a stick, even though the sticks are longer. I tend to omit some twirling strikes when training with the sword....probably because I'm not 100% comfortable with a live sword. I know I can use one if necessary, but I'd be more comfortable with a stick or a knife with a blade of 10" or less.

 

[Spada e Pugnale]

Hello Dayuhan13,

FMa stick techniques and sword techniques. Has your instructor taught you both? And do you know the difference?

At my school, when FMA was still part of the curriculum, most of the blade work we did was admittedly with knives (as opposed to swords), though I saw my teacher do some nice work with machetes from time to time.

However, I do indeed know the difference between stickfighting and swordfighting--partially from noting the particulars of edged weapons use from FMA knifework, and partially from my Western fencing background.

Some of you might be curious why I have sword and stick as separate techniques. IMO, yes they are similar but not all of the concepts are interchangeble. Weight, length, the presence of a sharp edge/s and point, and sheath are factors that need to be kept in mind.

Sticks and wooden swords have been used as training tools--in place of live blades--by many warrior cultures, for thousands of years. Using those tools properly, in their designated context, is the key.

The weight difference between a barong with a 16" blade and a 26" rattan stick is significant. Imagine a 26" sundang or ginungting instead of the barong and the and the centrifugal energy another 10" of steel creates. It's tough to quickly redirecting something of that size and weight one handed.

With all due respect, you have made a common error here, in reference to cetrifugal force.

The only force that is actually acting on the weapon (which is the "body in motion") is centripetal force. My late father, who was an engineer, explained this to me when I was a kid, when he saw a CMA book on the three-sectional staff that I had, which spoke of centrifugal force. He pointed out that the author of the book was wrong, and that the whole reference to cetrifugal (as opposed to cetripetal) force is actually a pretty common misconception.

This supports the idea of training with kamagong or another dense hardwood. Such harwoods in 24"-28" length and 1"+ diameter best imitates actual blade weight. If you struggle with they heavier weight, there's no way you could efficiently wield a sword.

Agreed.

In fact, the late Roman military writer, Flavius Renatus Vegetius, noted that legionary recruits trained at the pallum (a 6-ft wooden stake) with a wooden sword and wickerwork shield, both of which were twice the weight of real weapons (I presume they must have been weighted somehow--perhaps loaded with lead). After working at the stake, recruits were then paired off against each other, using steel swords covered in leather, for some sort of free-bouting. The training system as a whole was known as the armatura.

Everyone cuts thier sticks to thier preferred length which on average is @ 26", with the exception of Serrada eskrimadors.

We used 28" sticks at our school, and, correct me if I'm wrong--don't larga mano practitioners sometimes use sticks as long as 36"?

I rely on footwork and parrying in defense. Force on force blocking isn't something I would consider with a sword but still an important skill. Failure to keep track of the edge/s and the point are the swordsman's demise. Most FMA practitioners have a tendency to "roll" thier stick during blocks. This is evident if you "present" your knuckles in the direction of a strike. Had it had been a sword instead, the edge would have been put in the path of the incoming strike and taken significant damage one possibly broken. Now imagine trying a supported cross block form an incoming #1 or #3 strike but with a double edged sword. Get the picture? Properly blocking with the flats or spine is an important skill that needs to be practiced and can only be done properly with a sword or trainer with obvious sword profiles.

The method of parrying you speak of is particularly common in the East (though it was also utilized in the West at times), because most Asian swords are differentially heat-treated, with a very hard edge and a softer back. This makes the edge somewhat brittle, and so parrying with the flat or back is necessary.

Later methods of European fencing often in fact parry with the edge--but close to the hilt, where the blade is thickest (the forte). The substantial hand protection offered by many Western sword hilts from this period also helps in this regard.

How many of you have ever drawn your stick/s from a sheath attached to you? That's what I thought.

As I don't wear a sword, I'll confess to having no real skill in this department.

Take all of the above mentioned and imagine yourself in the 18th century. It doesn't matter where. Is your current training enough to have kept you alive in combat. If it isn't, you owe it to yourself to change it.

This is an interesting question, because you specifically state that "it doesn't matter where" we are in the "18th century" scenario. Therefore, the question of "Is your training enough to have kept you alive in combat?" is rather complicated.

In return, I would ask you (and everyone else) if you train regularly against epee and saber fencers--since, if you were in Europe in the 18th century (or otherwise encountered a European escrimeur, esgrimador, schermitore, fechter, etc.), you would have to know how to deal with the smallsword, backsword (single-edged), broadsword (double-edged), and saber. A Filipino in the 18th century might have had to square off against a Spaniard armed with a long civilian rapier (espada), or a military saber (sable). The Spanish were slow to adopt the shorter civilian smallsword (espadin), but they began incorporating concepts from the French and Italian schools by the 19th century. It is also interesting to note that, in D. Jose Cucala y Bruno's 1854 manual, Tratado de Esgrima, he shows the saber fencers performing FMA-style safety checks with the "alive hand". It would be fascinating to know if this was a result of parallel evolution, or something that was borrowed directly from the Filipino styles.

And the swordsmen in the Philippines--both native Filipinos and Spaniards--were arguably amongst the very best from the 16th-19th centuries, since they had to contend with so many different styles. The Philippines was truly a "martial arts crossroads", where so many cultures came into conflict during several centuries, and this makes it one of the most interesting places to study, from a hoplological point of view.

Great thread, btw!

Peace,

S e P

 

[dayuhan13]

Hello Dayuhan13,
With all due respect, you have made a common error here, in reference to cetrifugal force.

The only force that is actually acting on the weapon (which is the "body in motion") is centripetal force. My late father, who was an engineer, explained this to me when I was a kid, when he saw a CMA book on the three-sectional staff that I had, which spoke of centrifugal force. He pointed out that the author of the book was wrong, and that the whole reference to cetrifugal (as opposed to cetripetal) force is actually a pretty common misconception.

S e P,

I never get that right!

We used 28" sticks at our school, and, correct me if I'm wrong--don't larga mano practitioners sometimes use sticks as long as 36"?

Yes, 36" sticks are often used as the length is roughly the average length of a kampilan,

This is an interesting question, because you specifically state that "it doesn't matter where" we are in the "18th century" scenario. Therefore, the question of "Is your training enough to have kept you alive in combat?" is rather complicated.

LOL, good point!

In return, I would ask you (and everyone else) if you train regularly against epee and saber fencers--since, if you were in Europe in the 18th century (or otherwise encountered a European escrimeur, esgrimador, schermitore, fechter, etc.), you would have to know how to deal with the smallsword, backsword (single-edged), broadsword (double-edged), and saber. A Filipino in the 18th century might have had to square off against a Spaniard armed with a long civilian rapier (espada), or a military saber (sable). The Spanish were slow to adopt the shorter civilian smallsword (espadin), but they began incorporating concepts from the French and Italian schools by the 19th century. It is also interesting to note that, in D. Jose Cucala y Bruno's 1854 manual, Tratado de Esgrima, he shows the saber fencers performing FMA-style safety checks with the "alive hand". It would be fascinating to know if this was a result of parallel evolution, or something that was borrowed directly from the Filipino styles.

Actually, for many years, I often trained with friends active in SCA and LARP events. I also met with kendo practitioners and gung fu stylists to round things out but wish I had a chance to experience some epee or foil. I've always been curious of the martial bladecraft of different cultures and eras. It was fascinating to see the advantages and disadvantages of my Kalis and indigenous weaponry. Working out with them allowed me to learn medeival techniques with not only swords but axes, polearms, flails and various sized shields. I consider it vital to significant changes in my personal bladecraft philosophy and training.

And the swordsmen in the Philippines--both native Filipinos and Spaniards--were arguably amongst the very best from the 16th-19th centuries, since they had to contend with so many different styles. The Philippines was truly a "martial arts crossroads", where so many cultures came into conflict during several centuries, and this makes it one of the most interesting places to study, from a hoplological point of view.

Great thread, btw!

Peace,

S e P

Your comments are well appreciated.

Respectfully,
D13

 

[Spada e Pugnale]

D13,

S e P,

I never get that right!

No worries, bro--like I said, it's a very common misconception, that has even made it into martial arts books!

Yes, 36" sticks are often used as the length is roughly the average length of a kampilan,

The kampilan does appear to be the longest of the Filipino swords, ranging up to 44" in overall length.

The kampilan is of course famous as being one of the main weapons used by Raja LapuLapu's warriors at the Battle of Mactan. Antonio Pigafetta, the Venetian Knight of St. John who fought by Magellan's side at that battle, described the kampilan as a terciado ("cutlass"), which makes sense.

However, in terms of larga mano work, it would be interesting to know if other (non-native) swords were sometimes used. In the mid-1700s, when the British attacked the Spanish in the Philippines (which led to a short-lived Anglo-Filipino alliance), the Brits noted that the Filipinos in Spanish military service used long-bladed, cup-hilted cut-and-thrust swords, of a type that was still used in Spain, but was considered "out-of-fashion" throughout the rest of Europe. This was the so-called bilbo, which should not be confused with the very narrow-bladed rapiers that had a similar hilt form. It seems that the bilbo would have been ideal for larga mano fighting.

LOL, good point!



Actually, for many years, I often trained with friends active in SCA and LARP events. I also met with kendo practitioners and gung fu stylists to round things out but wish I had a chance to experience some epee or foil. I've always been curious of the martial bladecraft of different cultures and eras. It was fascinating to see the advantages and disadvantages of my Kalis and indigenous weaponry. Working out with them allowed me to learn medeival techniques with not only swords but axes, polearms, flails and various sized shields. I consider it vital to significant changes in my personal bladecraft philosophy and training.

You should check and see if there are any sport fencers in your area who would be willing to cross-train--it may give you a new perspective. Certainly, outside of the few "historical fencing" salles (which are comparatively few and far between), foil and epee fencers are the closest you'll get to bouting against a smallsword. Modern saber, unfortunately, has suffered from severe dillution--they even count "cuts" with the flat of the blade, which has always irritated me. Still, a modern sabreur who fights in a more "classical" fashion (ie., using proper cuts, as per the Italian Scuola Magistrale) can be formidable. The sense of timing and distance that fencers tend to have cannot be ignored, since they spend so much time free-bouting.

The problem with the SCA is that the different groups/chapters can vary widely in the quality of their fighters. I have been assured by several folks that there are SCA groups who train dilligently, and have many formidable fighters. Unfortunately, my own experience with local SCA groups in my area during the past 8 or 9 years have not been as impressive. The best fighters I dealt with were always folks with previous sport fencing experience, and they were often very good. However, the SCA dudes who had only trained within the SCA itself (ie., those who had no other martial art and/or combat sport training and experience) were often pretty poor in their technique (and some of their rules are downright silly)--but again, that's only my experience, and it apparently doesn't reflect the quality of SCA combatants as a whole.

Peace,

S e P