Folded Steel Knives?

Blain

Blain

Gold Member
Joined
May 7, 2004
Messages
152
Just curious, how come knives arn't made using folded steel like the Japanese Katanas? I have always heard that folding the steel makes a blade stronger and a better cutter, but it takes lots of skill. That should be no problem nowdays with all our modern tech. I mean, wouldn't a blade, made with steel that had been folded upon itself many times over, be much stronger, sharper, and cut better than one big hulking piece of forged metal?

Sounds like an interesting idea, anyway. Would be neat to see how such a knife would come out and last in endurence tests.
 
Blain said:
Just curious, how come knives arn't made using folded steel like the Japanese Katanas? I have always heard that folding the steel makes a blade stronger and a better cutter, but it takes lots of skill. That should be no problem nowdays with all our modern tech. I mean, wouldn't a blade, made with steel that had been folded upon itself many times over, be much stronger, sharper, and cut better than one big hulking piece of forged metal?

Sounds like an interesting idea, anyway. Would be neat to see how such a knife would come out and last in endurence tests.
Click to expand...

Well I beleive you would have to hand forge the blades to do this. Most companies use machines to make knives in these times that just cut out blanks of the knife blades.
-Kevin
 
You're going to want a pro to answer this question accurately for you, but "cost" would be my answer. Folding basically makes the steel more uniform throughout the blade's length. Modern smelting can achieve more uniform elements in the steel, so a folded blade is only marginally better or not at all better than modern high quality steels. Folding makes up for the poor quality of steel used in ancient smelting.

Once again, I'm not a pro, but this is my understanding of it.
 
"folding the steel makes a blade stronger and a better cutter" well not really. Modern steels properly heat treated will do at least as well as the old 'folded' blades. The japanese developed blades with the techniques and materials they had at the time. There is no miracle about it. Folded steel blades today are basically for looks not performance.
 
Mete, I've been thinking the same thing for months now, but didnt say anything for fear of being banned for blasphemy. At least I'm not the only heretic.
 
the old folded steel blades were sometimes the same steel folded over on itself many times.

Not as we do nowadays folding several layers of different steels together.

What mete says about steel quality makes perfect sense to me.

It comes down to whether or not tradition is an important part of your particular knife-making process.

There are those that still fold their katanas here in the USA....
 
there are lots of knives with "folded" steel blades - they're called Damascus blades - re-introduced to American bladesmithing (and popularized) by Bill Moran.

These days Damascus steel is produced more for looks/beauty than for any strength advantage. Although marketing and advertizing may still make such claims.

In Japanese Katanas - the folding was used originally to purify and get carbon into the iron ore, but (obviously) the folding also helped strengthen the blades.

Modern steel processing has made current steels free of major impurities and more uniform, and heat treatments are much more precise and controlled - so any folding advantage may be marginal - especially for shorter tools like knives -

The advantage may not be as marginal when it comes to longer blades like swords - hence the continuation of the use of folded steels in modern katanas used for tameshigiri (sword cutting).

The one damascus pattern that is practical for strength would be the layered (thinly "laminated" by folding or "stacking") - as not all Damascus patterns IMHO would add strength - some may actually be less strong depending on the orientation of the folding/stacking of the steel.

Another reputed (and probably less expensive) way of adding strength is to use laminated or sandwiched steel - as in the Frosts laminated steel Mora knives (actually one of the cheapest quality fixed blades - as low as $9!) - and the "San-Mai" blades.

A rather nice looking combination is the solid steel core sandwiched between damascus as in the Kershaw Shun Classic series of kitchen knives:

http://www.kershawknives.com/kitchen/shun3.htm

Kershaw Shun Classic paring knife blade
Shun_bld.jpg


Or in this Browning Damascus double-edged Hunter:
BrngDamscBld.jpg


--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
 
It is impossible to know if damascus cuts better or holds an edge better than "normal" steels, since no one has done any research. I wish someone would finally just do a series of tests with different steels, damascus and all, and post their results, there wouldn't be nearly as many pointless debates on the forums. Then of course other people would want to do their own studies, with different techniques, and we'd have plenty of material to read from in deciding what is the best steel. Sadly, it doesn't seem like this will ever happen.
 
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