Folder in CPM-10V!

Bronco

Bronco

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Feb 25, 2000
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Fellow forumites, is anyone aware of the existence of any folders available with a CPM-10V blade? Production or custom- I don't care, I'm just curious if such a thing is currently being offered. My therapist is telling me that I really need one of these and I don't know where to turn. Thanks to all.

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Semper Fi
 
At last, a fellow sufferer. And I thought I was the only one...perhaps my therapist could contact your therapist about a 10V on-line group.
 
You may do better posting this in the Bladesmith's forum. Custom knifemakers tend to hang out there, and they will make a knife out of nearly everything you want. Walt
 
Walt, a fellow can do much worse than heed your advice. Off I go.
Will, what say we take this over to the Bladesmith forum and see what turns up?

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Semper Fi
 
Bronco, I just ordered a folder from PJ Tomes, with a CPM420V blade, he claims is pretty tough stuff and he has made literally tons of knives over the year and knows of where he speaks, you might try calling and talking with him about the 10V stuff? Or even try the 420V, I think our own Tom Mayo uses the 420V as well, and heard tell others have bought knives with that, maybe they will respond and let us know what they think?

I can't wait to get this folder and try that blade!

G2

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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...


G2 LeatherWorks
 
If you are looking for the performance of CPM-10V you will not find it in CPM-420V .

-Cliff
 
Cliff, what's your take on CPM420V?
G2
 
Yeah Cliff,
Based on your extensive testing experience, I'd also be curious as to your opinion regarding how 420V stacks up today specifically in terms of edge retention and wear resistance. Assuming CPM-10V is the current edge retention king of the hill (an assertion that you are certainly free to challenge if appropriate), what other steels currently available to knifemakers would you rank below 10V and above 420V. For the purposes of this discussion let's assume that the steels in question have been properly heat treated and have been tempered to a reasonable RC value appropriate for a knife constructed of that particular steel. Although not readily available to other makers, please include INFI in your analysis if it's edge retention abilities are in this class. Thanks.

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Semper Fi
 
BRONCO i don't have a folder in cpm10v,but i am having Roger Dole build me a custom folder in cpm15v.i will let you know how it does when i get it done.
 
The really important difference for you between the alloys you have mentioned is corrosion resistance. CPM 420V has a LOT of chrome (13%) and will provide considerable corrosion resistance, despite the relatively high concentration of other carbide formers (C 2.2%, V 9%).

How many folders are made of non corrosion resistant tool steel? Yep, there are some, but they are coated with some corrosion resistant coating.

You should spend some time perusing the CPM site: http://www.crucibleservice.com/crumain2.htm

They have a specific section on the selection of tool steels. The problem with the 9,10, and 15V is that wear resistance varies inversely with toughness. Check out their chart to verify this.

Hope this helps, Walt
 
Wow Elim, kudos to you. Full speed ahead and damn the torpedos. You've jumped right to the head of the class with your choice of 15V. Please do keep us informed how the project turns out. I'm sure all the forum technophiles like myself will be very interested.

Doc, thanks for the clarification. My brief time on this forum has been a tremendous learning experience. I've been curious about 420V mainly due to it's reportedly increased percentage of vanadium (I think it's vanadium?) as compared to the older 440V. The vanadium as I understand it, is what adds to wear resistance and edge retention capabilities. In case you haven't guessed, edge retention is of primary importance to me, and to get it, I'm willing to trade some toughness (had to work hard not to leave that preposition dangling, Doc
smile.gif
). If, as you say, 420V also turns out to be more corrosion resistant than it's predecessor, then that's icing on the cake where I'm concerned. I'll definitely check out the crucible site and learn more. I did notice, however, on the Carolina Knife website, their claim that CPM-10V demonstrates approximately the same toughness characteristics as M2 and D2 steels. If true, that would certainly be more than sufficient for my needs. I wonder if we can infer from all this that 420V is even tougher than 10V? I'd better not propose that until I've checked out CPM's site.

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Semper Fi
 
Will; first of all, Cliff takes issue to nearly everyone sooner or later; that is what makes the forum so valuable; all of us agreeing would be stagnation.

However, you misquoted me. I said that the really important difference for (Bronco was...). This was because he was having a folder made, and corrosion resistance is important in a folder. I did NOT say the primary performance difference was.....

Look at the composition of the two alloys, CPM 10V is: C 2.45%, Cr 5.25%, V 9.75% Mo 1.3% CPM 420V is C 2.2% Cr 13% V 9% Mo 1%

To me, the main difference between these two alloys is the Cr concentration; it is nearly 2 1/2 times higher in CPM 420V. I agree that a lot of that Cr (but NOT all) will go into softer Cr carbides; 10V will have more V carbides, so will probably have better wear resistance. Hmmm...let's go to the CPM site:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/cruplas.htm

By golly, I was right! 10V DOES have better wear resistance than does 420V.

Further, CPM 420V is less tough. Hmmm... not sure why, but there is less C and Mo in 420V, and this could influence toughness.

However, I still think that the main consideration in a folder, which gets liquid in crevices, is corrosion resistance. Walt
 
Well to add a little to this conversation, I spoke with PJ Tomes today and asked on behalf of Bronco if he would consider making a folder using CPM10V. And he didn't come right out and say no but from our conversation I gathered that he would rather not. One reason was that it rusted, secondly he said it was less forgiving steel, I'm paraphasing so don't take this verbatim, when I asked what he meant by that he told me about a time when he was cutting through some hose and is sliced through and hit the pipe behind the hose and chipped the blade near the ricasso. I took it to mean that it would chip easier?
He is quite fond of the CPM420V, right now, and that is what the knife I'll be getting from him will have.
I asked him if he ever ventured onto the internet and he said `Nope, I'm busy making knives' or words to that effect.

He is a very nice person to talk with, like to meet him one day.

G2

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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...


G2 LeatherWorks
 
Originally posted by Walt Welch:
However, you misquoted me. I said that the really important difference for (Bronco was...). This was because he was having a folder made, and corrosion resistance is important in a folder. I did NOT say the primary performance difference was.....
Click to expand...

Walt--Thank you for clearing that up. Pardon me for inferring that what is "really important" and what is "primary" are synonymous.
I think one reason Cliff ends up challenging many of us is because his information comes largely from his own well-designed experimentation, whereas many of us tend to take written analysis from other sources as basis for our conclusions.
I hope I'm not misquoting Cliff, but I believe his experience with 420V vs. 10V, for instance on a heavy, abrasive fabric, was that the 420V chipped out readily and the 10V didn't. For someone who wanted the maximum in edge durability, I would say that distinction is "really important", and even a "primary difference".
Your obediant servant...
Will
 
To be specific, I have a blade in 420V at 59 RC, and one in 10V at 62.5 RC. Both were ground and heat treated by Phil Wilson which included a cryo treat. They both have the same edge profile. The blade is .01" thick just behind the bevel which is ground at about 15-20 degrees.

What I have found is that 420V does not slice as aggressive as 10V, the edge deforms quicker and it will chip much easier. I have not done a detailed comparision of the two blades in these regards because the 420V blade is a fillet knife and thus its profile is very dissimilar but mainly its performance simply didn't impress me (relative to 10V), especially the chipping, so I had little motivation.

A couple of makers have tentative offers to let me have a look at a couple of their 420V blades and if they do then I will look at it in more detail for the purpose of ranking its performance against other stainless steels.

One thing to mention in regards to the CPM alloys is that it takes very high temperatures to get optimal performance. Phil Wilson brings them up in the 2100+ F range.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-11-2000).]
 
I appreciate everyone's contributions heretofore. For me personally, this has been one of the most informative threads I've seen in some time.

G2-- Thanks for taking the time and initiative to speak with PJ on my behalf. You are yet another example of BFC members at their finest. It's too bad PJ's not a proponent of 10V at this time, but I don't suppose it's in anyone's best interest to coerce a maker into working with a material in which he isn't comfortable.

Will--Thanks for the link to Cliff's index page. I've read many of his reviews in the past, but was unaware of the index page. Now I've got alot more reading ahead of me.

Cliff--As always, your input is much appreciated. Could you very, very briefly recount the scenario which led to the 420V filet knife's edge chipping, and perhaps give us your best educated guess as to whether an ATS-34 filet knife of equal dimensions would have likely suffered the same damage under similar circumstances. Thanks.


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Semper Fi
 
Bronco :

Could you very, very briefly recount the scenario which led to the 420V filet knife's edge chipping
Click to expand...

I was cutting carpet, it is described in detail in the Battle Mistress review, which is in progress and in dire needing of being cleaned up.

your best educated guess as to whether an ATS-34 filet knife of equal dimensions would have likely suffered the same damage under similar circumstances.
Click to expand...

Yes assuming the ATS-34 was tempered for aggressive cutting action and edge retention. You can of course drop the RC on CPM-420V so it would not chip out during the carpet cutting, it would just start to roll much easier because of the strength loss and level of functional edge retention, for what it was intended to do, would drop off quickly.

Note that Phil's choice of temper and bevel profile for the CPM-420V fillet blade provide the necessary level of durability for its intended use as I have cut a good deal of fish without any problems. I chipped it out as I was curious as to the behavior of the steel in that profile in general.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-12-2000).]
 
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