Folder versus fixed blade: Historical references?

K

Knifestyle

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Dec 6, 2009
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Anyone venturing near self defense territory eventually gets the lecture on fixed blades versus folders. Typically, it comes down to, "Yes, I know, but I can't carry a fixed blade for legal or comfort reasons." Only gets broken up by a guy who loves the Emerson Wave once in a while, or the guys really into a type of SD folder.

I wonder...This argument has to have gone on since the invention of the folding knife traced back to the Roman Empire. Folders have popped up in almost every Western culture and some of the Asian ones. All the while issues such as crime, self defense, and combat in general have remained constant and so has the concept of individuals reacting and preparing for it. And surely, there had to be a guy with a fixed blade (Which at the time would just be considered 'a knife') on his belt because he knew he could draw it faster in a pinch. For utility purposes no one can argue a folder is just convenient, probably why the folder usurped the fixed blade in popularity worldwide. But at some point, the now cliche argument of fixed versus folder must have been written down, recorded, or commented on.

Has anyone ever seen any historical references to this debate, from any culture or era?
 
I don't think there really can be a debate on this, well not one that would make any logical since anyway.

Society has changed as have the laws so what people tend to carry for various reasons will vary depending on what they can do or not do.

That has nothing to do with what is really better in the end.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navaja

The navaja was popular among thieves and the Spanish Gypsies, the Gitanos. The navaja's popularity among the criminal element is attested to in James Loriega's book Sevillian Steel. Loriega writes,

" Navajas crossed the hands and drew the blood of soldiers and sailors, rogues and ruffians, and diplomats and aristocrats both in and out of Spain's borders. The use of the navaja fostered a mystique, not only from Seville's back streets, but also from the seedy waterfronts of Barcelona, and the cosmopolitan promenades of Madrid. Regardless of their original intent, the navaja represented the ultimate means for resolving disagreements, misunderstandings, and problems that arose in dockside bars, darkened alleys, and an untold number of places not found in any guidebook; places where there is little reliance on legal recourses; places where you either catch a glimpse of steel and live-or miss it and never know why you died"
 
The thing about this debate is that even though the fixed blade is usually the stronger option the folder is usually easier to carry. The difference of strength in a large tri-ad folder (spartan,espada,rajah) and a fixed blade of the same dimensions would be marginal in a defensive situation and most others.Like you said, some people can't legally carry a fixed blade anyway so you can understand that a "tactical" folder is an attractive thing for them.Still even if I was able to legally conceal a fixed blade.. I would only do so if it was a lot larger then the folder and thus offered more performance .
 
Nternal said:
The thing about this debate is that even though the fixed blade is usually the stronger option the folder is usually easier to carry. The difference of strength in a large tri-ad folder (spartan,espada,rajah) and a fixed blade of the same dimensions would be marginal in a defensive situation and most others.Like you said, some people can't legally carry a fixed blade anyway so you can understand that a "tactical" folder is an attractive thing for them.Still even if I was able to legally conceal a fixed blade.. I would only do so if it was a lot larger then the folder and thus offered more performance .
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Given the choice I would carry a 7" Double Edged Fixed blade for defense, but then I don't have those kind of choices were I live.
 
I'm not looking to continue the debate, that'll go on forever with old points...More curious if anyone has ever seen records of the same arguments popping up throughout history. For instance, did anyone ever write 'Why do the Gypsies bother with folders?' in an old combat manual? We could rant all night about designs and laws, but I'm more focused on back in past ages.
 
Knifestyle said:
I'm not looking to continue the debate, that'll go on forever with old points...More curious if anyone has ever seen records of the same arguments popping up throughout history. For instance, did anyone ever write 'Why do the Gypsies bother with folders?' in an old combat manual? We could rant all night about designs and laws, but I'm more focused on back in past ages.
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I doubt if people really worried about such things as it was long before cars, phones, the Internet and forums.

Most of what I have seen has been about Swords and big fixed blades, mostly swords though.

Times were different back then too so I would think if some moron started talking about some puny folder the other guy with the huge Fixed blade or sword would just solve the debate and walk away laughing.

Much simpler times back in the past... Much more common since back in those times then today's world of BS and speculation.

Common since tells us what the real answers are and that Society changing has led to more people carrying folders like I posted before. None of it has to do with what is better, the laws and society never dictate what is better, all they do is hinder what really works for real.

Back in the old days people drew real blood and people really did die for real, not like today's world of cargo shorts, caps on sideways or backwards, the Internet, video games, Hollywood, wannabe gangsters, texting on cell phones and people talking about how tough they think they are with that 3 1/2" folder. Today people get thrown in prison for almost nothing so it's not really likely people would prove anything for real, added to that more people are killed today with kitchen knives than folders and those are fixed blades. People would be better off today walking around with a cane or even a broom handle than a folder.

Knives are a tool 1st and if needed, although unlikely as a weapon 2nd.

If we lived way back in the past then we would all likely be carrying large fixed blades and or swords.
 
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Ankerson said:
I doubt if people really worried about such things as it was long before cars, phones, the Internet and forums.

Most of what I have seen has been about Swords and big fixed blades, mostly swords though.

Times were different back then too so I would think if some moron started talking about some puny folder the other guy with the huge Fixed blade or sword would just solve the debate and walk away laughing.

Much simpler times back in the past... Much more common since back in those times then today's world of BS and speculation.

Common since tells us what the real answers are and that Society changing has led to more people carrying folders like I posted before. None of it has to do with what is better, the laws and society never dictate what is better, all they do is hinder what really works for real.

Back in the old days people drew real blood and people really did die for real, not like today's world of cargo shorts, caps on sideways or backwards, the Internet, video games, Hollywood, wannabe gangsters, texting on cell phones and people talking about how tough they think they are with that 3 1/2" folder. Today people get thrown in prison for almost nothing so it's not really likely people would prove anything for real, added to that more people are killed today with kitchen knives than folders and those are fixed blades. People would be better off today walking around with a cane or even a broom handle than a folder.

Knives are a tool 1st and if needed, although unlikely as a weapon 2nd.

If we lived way back in the past then we would all likely be carrying large fixed blades and or swords.
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very good post

Back when everyone new fixed blades where better so there was no debate :D
 
I think the fixed blade vs folding knife argument is a recent phenomena, and in particular tri-ad worship is brand new. For most of history, the argument you hypothesize has really been "slipjoint/friction folder vs fixed blade", which is an entirely different argument than "Emerson vs fixed blade". Also, even if the Romans had Emersons, would they have chosen them over the gladius?

As about as close as I've seen to what you are looking for involves an apocryphal story about Jim Bowie.

Apparently, there had been some unpleasantness between Sheriff Norris Wright and Jim Bowie.

Unpleasantness to the point of the Sheriff pulling his pistol and taking a shot at him.

Jim only had a folding knife on him. In the ensuing struggle, he was able to get it out, and although he even used his teeth, wasn't able to open it. The fight was broken up by their friends.

After that, Jim carried a fixed blade.
 
kozak6 said:
Also, even if the Romans had Emersons, would they have chosen them over the gladius?


.
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That's a funny thought but to be fair that's a huge difference. A better question would be would they choose an emerson over a fixed blade with the same blade length. I think a roman assassin might choose the emerson.
 
Since firearms made the edged weapon a secondary means of conducting warfare, the emphasis moved from necessity driving the creation of the strongest, most ingenious blades and swords, to amateurs and marketing companies becoming the major forces in design. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, as time marches on. My great-grandfather carried a finicky old Peacemaker but still favored it over the stoutest of blade. Now, if gunpowder was left to nothing more deadly that fireworks, it would be interesting to see what modern metallurgical magic would arise from countries still focusing upon the sword and saber.

The hassle of carrying a large Bowie is simply too much so I usually bring along the most fearsome of folders as possible to back up whatever guns I'm wearing on any given day. Firearms can FUBAR at a moments notice but 6 or so inches of good steel still gets even the most noxious of villains attention. In Florida I could carry a long sword if so inclined but who'd want every soccer mom in the county screaming for the Sheriff.
 
I'll say that folders are simply more popular because they are easier to carry. You don't need a sheath and a folder is more compact in the folded position, even compared to a short pocket sized fixed blade. That being said, I've seen my waved Emersons fail to deploy on occasion and there are vulnerable positions that would prevent you from drawing the knife and successfully deploying it.
 
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