Follow a fool or risk dying alone?

L

lmalterna

Joined
Dec 12, 2002
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With plane crashes and Survivor as current topics, if you were in a situation of group survival- say a plane crash, overland tour bus, or what have you. You find yourself among the group of able bodied survivors.

As people start thinking over their situation, it is normal to start looking for a "leader". Say such leader is chosen due to his/her Alpha personality rather than real skill. You know his/her ideas are poor and likely to lead to more problems than solutions. Do you decide to bag it and go it alone or stay with the numbers hoping to sway people to better decisions as this person fails??

Of course, dividing also means a squabble for supplies.

I am generally a go it my way type but I have never ACTUALLY been in this life or death situation. How do you think you would rool?

Bill
 
I am sorry- as usual it is best to stay in place but lets assume for this discussion that option is not available. Movement will be required. Self rescue may be the best way out- for this discussion.

Volunteers are staying with the wounded for the help we will bring back.

Bill
 
I've always been a lone wolf. I'm an only child , I've traveled the world alone, I generally hike and camp alone, I enjoy my own company more than most other peoples company, etc...

With that said though I'd probably stick with the group until I really disagreed with a decision or there was serious risk I would not be willing to take. At that point I would try and convince the others and If I could not I would go my own way. I will never put my life in someone else's hands unless there is absolutely no other choice.
 
I would assign myself the leader until someone else convinced me they were more knowledgeable and then I would listen to them.But they would have to PROVE they knew more about the topic than me.

I think it would be foolish in most situations to go off on your own -a twisted ankle,for example could prove fatal.
 
yea I am with Dr. Bill, on this one too. You better know your stuff if you are going to tell me about survival skills.


It kind of sounds like bragging but like like VT guy says when you put your life in someones elses hands that has no real survival skills you are asking for trouble. If the Group wants to follow it person that has no skills then that is the way it goes, I would lone wolf it.


Bill, how is that 7" Greystoke doing?

Good thread too. I am looking forward to reading what others have to say.


Bryan
 
Honestly it really depends on how much everyone else knows lol. If you know a lot about how to survive on your own, then the only real problem you might face could be injury of some kind. If there is a doctor or someone who knows a lot about treating injuries in the main group then it may be best to stay. But if there isn't, then why stay if they are making stupid decisions and won't listen to you (assuming you tried to sway them in the right direction).
 
lmalterna said:
You know his/her ideas are poor and likely to lead to more problems than solutions.
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Since fewer problems are preferable to more problems, I might stay with the plane or bus. But there would be countless factors which go in to the decision, which just aren't present in a hypothetical, and those would be dispositive.
 
I would stay with the group right up until someone wants to walk off a cliff or drink their own pee. There's a reason humans live and work together. It's easier, safer, and the collective knowledge is generally greater than an individuals. If the leader was a total egotist and started telling people what to do without any common sense or regard to the skill and experience of the people they're trying to lead, then I may wander off. But then we're dealing with a dictator and not a true leader.
 
WILLIAM.M said:
I would assign myself the leader until someone else convinced me they were more knowledgeable and then I would listen to them.But they would have to PROVE they knew more about the topic than me.

I think it would be foolish in most situations to go off on your own -a twisted ankle,for example could prove fatal.
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sicily02 said:
yea I am with Dr. Bill, on this one too. You better know your stuff if you are going to tell me about survival skills.


It kind of sounds like bragging but like like VT guy says when you put your life in someones elses hands that has no real survival skills you are asking for trouble. If the Group wants to follow it person that has no skills then that is the way it goes, I would lone wolf it.


Bill, how is that 7" Greystoke doing?

Good thread too. I am looking forward to reading what others have to say.


Bryan
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I disagree with this. The most knowledgeable person isn't always the best leader and the best leader isn't always the most knowledgeable person. Like most things, being a leader is a skill and not everyone has it. I would hazard a guess that a lot of the people who post in this forum, the lone wolf types, are probably the worst leaders. I include myself in that.
 
As some of you have already pointed out , there are bad decisions and dangerous ones. I can work with making sense of a bad decision but will not follow a person or group making dangerous ones.

Deciding to walk the desert during daylight hours might be one where you have to decide to break from the group. People under duress might grasp that shiney straw of someone who "looks" like a leader to them. Figure a corporate talking head like many people follow in regular life- looks and sounds good so they will still follow. Sociology is a really wonderful thing to study.

My personality type is one that offers my opinion, willing to dive in and contribute all I have, willing to consider others opinions but unwilling to go against what I know is wrong. So I do O.K. in a cooporate group but quickly go my own way if we cannot reconcile- no hard feelings.

To offer to be a leader is a courageous thing but whether people follow or not is up to them.

LOL!! I am OK if folks in the group want to drink "their" own pee..... ;)

I would 99% prefer to stay with the wreckage IF there is a reasonable knowledge rescue will come. I would "prefer" to remain in a group, but have proven that I will strike out on my own- just not in a life or death yet.

Bryan, 7" LG has gotten little use so far but I like it... I REALLY like it :)

Bill
 
Shotgun- you nailed my personality type- I prefer NOT to be a leader but to be a strong anchor. If I cannot find someone I can respect enough to follow- I gravitate away. I will still support any who wish to travel my way but still do not expect to be seen as a leader.

Bill
 
WILLIAM.M said:
I would assign myself the leader until someone else convinced me they were more knowledgeable and then I would listen to them.But they would have to PROVE they knew more about the topic than me.

I think it would be foolish in most situations to go off on your own -a twisted ankle,for example could prove fatal.
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Thats me too. I usually somehow end up leading outdoor activities i participate in (it's also part of my vocation), but i don't campaign for it. I just do what/go where seems best to me. My choices usually makes sense to others who are with me and so off we go. I've had some folks who want to understand why/where and i'm agreeable dialogueing about my choice. If there are other leader-types, i'll tentatively co-lead alongside them, but i'm not following a fool anywhere and *would* campaign against that.

Since i love winter mountaineering/backpacking/camping i often find myself soloing (most folks really don't enjoy frosty tent-sleeping - that's where i'm 'different'). With enough years soloing, you tend to learn your limits and take only well-investigated risks. However, i am a "group animal" and more on the extroverted side of things and prefer company, but won't follow a fool (been there, done that and have the scars to prove it!).
 
In literature, those types are usually called "tragic heroes". Well used in British Literature. Think "Harry Potter", "A Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy", "1984", "Children of Men", "Brazil", etc. Or Wolverine in X-Men. The main heroes of the story are not typical Alpha Leaders who are given their leadership role out of seniority or privilege. They're on their own path and reluctantly accept leadership when others look to them. Outside of literature, we call those types "political dissidents", "whistle blowers", and "traitors", that is if they're not successful in their endeavors. They're not called tragic heroes for nothing. :)
 
Shoot the idiot, hide the body in a ravine and then lead the group to safety. Problem solved.

Wait, you mean as in real life situations? Ok ok ok.

Shoot the idiot, hide the body in a ravine, lead the group to safety, and then go tell your story on "I shouldn't be alive" showing how removing the idiot saved everyone's life. ;)
 
Shotgun said:
I disagree with this. The most knowledgeable person isn't always the best leader and the best leader isn't always the most knowledgeable person. Like most things, being a leader is a skill and not everyone has it. I would hazard a guess that a lot of the people who post in this forum, the lone wolf types, are probably the worst leaders. I include myself in that.
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Bam!..... that's my thinking, too. I have many skills to offer up and a strong dominant(outspoken) personality but would probably not make the best leader.... mostly because "I'm never wrong"... lol. I would stick with the group, do my best to improve the situation and take a stand against a blatantly dangerous proposition. Folks tend to listen when you tell them their LIFE is on the line.
 
Once things were assessed. and what injuries were taken care of the best that could be. it is time to start the survival part. It might be getting shelter right now or it might be getting a fire and having light to help in to build the shelter. Staying with the group and helping is the way to go. It will not take to long for a leader to either step up or one to be chosen. There are so many varibles but all in all I would try to help with all of the survivors. Again if I had to go it alone type of thing I would.

Bryan
 
Wait untill the group is cold or it gets dark... make a fire from sticks... claim my place as the leaders confidant/advisor.
 
For me its hard to say.. it all depands on the leader and what happend what condition im in... Am i hurt do i have family members that are hurt.Its one thing to say what i would or wouldnt do sittin on the sofa nice and warm with a full belly. I would rather stay in a group but always make sure i put family and myself first. If i know for a fact that the leader puts me in harms way.. I shall go my way and protect family and self. Im sure no matter what happens it wont be black and white one way or the other. There would be lots of thing to consider.. There might be someone that dicides to join me and with more then one person its safer and easier to break from the main group.. maybe there would be one of you guys out there with me. Then im sure there still would be diffrent ideas what to do and how to do it... But we would do just fine. The one thing that i consider the most important is the attitude.. Stay up beat and dont let anything take you down.

Sasha
 
As someone else recently posted about the movie The Grey- in group survival, there is much more going on than just surviving of the elements. A group dynamic can either ease the challenge or add to it. One of the best things about the zombie flicks or the show Survivor(they are not really surviving any elements/wilderness after all)--- is seeing how people either work together or struggle against each other in a crisis(realizing they are fiction but still give an insight to consider).

Rational thought and willingness to compromise and work together often goes out the window. Plenty of documentation on real survival situations where people began to conflict to the point of causing more harm than they did good to each other and the group. There CAN be a point where you might have to bag the group for your own good. I can compromise when it is a hike or camping trip and make do. When lives are on the line, I am not likely to go along with something I know to be wrong or detrimental to me and mine. I am less likely to fight for authority and more likely to bail and control my own fate as much as possible, as long as no one prevents me from leaving.
Bill
 
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