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Does the vulnerability to chipping when using blades of steels such as D2 and ATS34 for chopping also apply when batoning same ?
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? for Cliff Stamp
- Thread starter Neanderthal
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I'm no Cliff, but I'll hop in. Batoning is much less stressful on a blade than chopping. If you baton without twisting, and in a straight vertical direction, there isn't much worry. That's assuming that you're batoning into wood of course. I guess that a particularly nasty knot could pose a problem, but I've never run into a knot that nasty.
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I'd have to agree with Buzz, unless you start with a very small angle on the edge, causing it to be fragile and prone to chipping during hard use, I don't see a problem with breaking it. I would think using it like a hatchet would lend to breaking more than whacking the spine would.
Good camp knives are designed with softer spines, the differential heat treat will help to keep the edge hrad for cutting and edge holding while the back stats a little softer to absorb the shok of chopping.
Why not use a small ax for chopping?
Good camp knives are designed with softer spines, the differential heat treat will help to keep the edge hrad for cutting and edge holding while the back stats a little softer to absorb the shok of chopping.
Why not use a small ax for chopping?
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Thanks for the replies ! I don't always have my GB "Wildlife Hatchet" or Livesay AK with me.
Cliff Stamp
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Neanderthal :
Essentially, it is a very similar action. Batoning is a more stressful impact (under the same energy level) as it isn't as smooth as a chop, and there are more variables to cause the force to be other than perpendicular[*]. The critical points here is *under the same energy), most batoning is actually done with sticks that don't have as much energy on a swing as a heavy chopping knife.
So in general which is more stressful depends on relative skill with each method, size of the knife, and how much energy used when batoning. If you use a light baton and take care when placing the knife and hitting the spine, the impacts will not be very stressful on the edge. If you use a very heavy baton, and swing hard and fast, the impacts can be many times more stressful.
As an example, awhile ago I was using an older butcher knife for some limbing and various chopping. As the knife was light no real power could be built up on the swing. Even though the edge was thin, since the impacts were not very energetic it held up fine. However when used with a heavy baton the edge readily buckled when it hit a knot.
[*]to clarify here this is in regards to chopping with a full grip around a handle on a blade heavy knife, if the grip is around the pommell to increase the balance, chopping forces get really wild and the edge impacts take a huge leap forward.
So yes, you can baton with this class of steels as long as you take a lot of care (same could be said of chopping). I would note however that there is little reason to, they are the worst steels you could use for that type of work being optomized for very different tasks. For that type of work you want a steel like 52100.
Considering batoning your knife through a piece of wood and smashing the edge into an inclusion. The edge on a D2 blade and 52100 will react very differently to a hard accidental contact, the 52100 (L6, 5160, INFI - lots of great wood working steels) blade will take less damage and be *far* easier to repair.
-Cliff
Essentially, it is a very similar action. Batoning is a more stressful impact (under the same energy level) as it isn't as smooth as a chop, and there are more variables to cause the force to be other than perpendicular[*]. The critical points here is *under the same energy), most batoning is actually done with sticks that don't have as much energy on a swing as a heavy chopping knife.
So in general which is more stressful depends on relative skill with each method, size of the knife, and how much energy used when batoning. If you use a light baton and take care when placing the knife and hitting the spine, the impacts will not be very stressful on the edge. If you use a very heavy baton, and swing hard and fast, the impacts can be many times more stressful.
As an example, awhile ago I was using an older butcher knife for some limbing and various chopping. As the knife was light no real power could be built up on the swing. Even though the edge was thin, since the impacts were not very energetic it held up fine. However when used with a heavy baton the edge readily buckled when it hit a knot.
[*]to clarify here this is in regards to chopping with a full grip around a handle on a blade heavy knife, if the grip is around the pommell to increase the balance, chopping forces get really wild and the edge impacts take a huge leap forward.
So yes, you can baton with this class of steels as long as you take a lot of care (same could be said of chopping). I would note however that there is little reason to, they are the worst steels you could use for that type of work being optomized for very different tasks. For that type of work you want a steel like 52100.
Considering batoning your knife through a piece of wood and smashing the edge into an inclusion. The edge on a D2 blade and 52100 will react very differently to a hard accidental contact, the 52100 (L6, 5160, INFI - lots of great wood working steels) blade will take less damage and be *far* easier to repair.
-Cliff
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My experience is much different than Cliff's. I've batoned the heck out of a convex ground D2 Dozier and had no edge problems. The baton was a piece of dried birch. The woods being batoned into were dried cherry, dried red cedar and dried Norway maple. Cedar isn't exactly a hard wood, but that cherry was downright nasty. I batoned through lots of knots and never produced any edge damage. No rolls, no chips, no rips, no dulling.
I don't have the knowledge to argue whether D2 is one of "the worst steels you could use for that type of work", but I will say that D2, when properly ground and heat treated, is more than good enough for the task of baton work. In fact, the D2 Dozier fared better in this test than a similarly ground 52100 Marbles. The Marbles knife chipped. The Dozier had no damage. If D2 is that much worse than 52100 for baton work, in seems that the steel type is a much smaller factor in a knifes suitability for baton work than maybe heat treatment and proper grinding.
I don't have the knowledge to argue whether D2 is one of "the worst steels you could use for that type of work", but I will say that D2, when properly ground and heat treated, is more than good enough for the task of baton work. In fact, the D2 Dozier fared better in this test than a similarly ground 52100 Marbles. The Marbles knife chipped. The Dozier had no damage. If D2 is that much worse than 52100 for baton work, in seems that the steel type is a much smaller factor in a knifes suitability for baton work than maybe heat treatment and proper grinding.
Cliff Stamp
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Buzzbait :
I have used a custom in CPM-10V 62/63 HRC from Phil Wilson to do a lot of the same, ask Phil does this mean he would recommend using the knife in this manner - or would this steel be a good choice for that type of use. The reason I have done it with no problems was that I have done it many times before and knew how to load the edge with minimal twisting and I knew the failure point of the knife having broke and damaged many others so could readily benchmark the necessary critical points [I also was very gentle around the tip as it has an extreme distal taper]. Care was also taken to very closely inspect all wood to insure the inclusion probability is very low (knobs around here sometimes spike wood). I am confident I could do this with the Mel Sorg D2 blade I have as well, though the edge is so thin I doubt it would get through knots (3/32", convex grind, no secondary edge bevel, edge is <10 included).
Outside of experience however, for practical purposes both knives are readily exceeded for that task by something like the Howling Rat or even Mora 2000. Both knives with are far cheaper (especially the Mora) and can take far more forceful batoning with far less skill - which can be of severe importance in many situations such as high stress, very cold (dexterity drops off), injury, loaning the knife (due to previous conditions), etc. .
When properly ground you can use any steel for any task if you define properly ground to satify that requirement - circular logic. It is how it fares in the other areas that are critical - what does it give up for its gains. D2 is optomized for wear resistance, it makes little effort to have decent levels of ductility, impact toughness or machinability (it is *very* low in all three and corrosion resistance as well but that doesn't matter here). Those latter three properties are what is needed for that type of wood working knife, the first property is of no consequence due to the very low rate of wear on knife edges for that class of cutting. So D2 is highest in the property that does not matter and ignores the ones that do and thus it is the worst possible steel to use.
To clarify, it would more correct to say among the worst, M2 would also be of similar stature as would the other steels of such properties. There are also steels which would be even worse such as T15 or the high CPM REX steels, but these are not commonly used for knifemaking. Of course any of the really hard steels would not be a good choice here as well, past 62 HRC and edge brittleness would probably be a factor and the edge would need to have to thicken to reduce damage and then of course you give up cutting ability. A commonly known downside of Japanese chisels, see Lee's book on sharpening for example.
Marbles has had problems with their heat treating reported on the forums in the past, specifically one of their heavier chopping blades completly being destroyed simply chopping through a piece of wood - the edge completely destructed. Of course a flawed piece of steel can perform horribly so yes when buying one get a knife with a decent standard of QC and in any case evaluate it fully before it needs to be depended upon. But yes, if you ground 52100 (L6, 5160 etc.) horribly unsuitable for batoning (thin hollow grind, acute edge) [or any other task] then it would fare badly same as if there were flaws in the steel or heat treatment. This of course doesn't change the fact that its inherent set of properties are ideally suited for the task.
In short, geometry defines cutting ability, heat treatment defines the ability of the steel and the composition [steel type] defines the absolute limits on those abilities. Similar to athletic performance in people, genetics defies your optimal performance (steel composition), training develops it (heat treating), and skill gives birth to function (geometry). A combination of all three is necessary for a superior athlete or knife. Just like coaches will pick athletes for potential which will be developed, you pick steels based on what they are designed to do. Of course you don't blame the steel if you don't take advantage of its abilities.
-Cliff
I have used a custom in CPM-10V 62/63 HRC from Phil Wilson to do a lot of the same, ask Phil does this mean he would recommend using the knife in this manner - or would this steel be a good choice for that type of use. The reason I have done it with no problems was that I have done it many times before and knew how to load the edge with minimal twisting and I knew the failure point of the knife having broke and damaged many others so could readily benchmark the necessary critical points [I also was very gentle around the tip as it has an extreme distal taper]. Care was also taken to very closely inspect all wood to insure the inclusion probability is very low (knobs around here sometimes spike wood). I am confident I could do this with the Mel Sorg D2 blade I have as well, though the edge is so thin I doubt it would get through knots (3/32", convex grind, no secondary edge bevel, edge is <10 included).
Outside of experience however, for practical purposes both knives are readily exceeded for that task by something like the Howling Rat or even Mora 2000. Both knives with are far cheaper (especially the Mora) and can take far more forceful batoning with far less skill - which can be of severe importance in many situations such as high stress, very cold (dexterity drops off), injury, loaning the knife (due to previous conditions), etc. .
When properly ground you can use any steel for any task if you define properly ground to satify that requirement - circular logic. It is how it fares in the other areas that are critical - what does it give up for its gains. D2 is optomized for wear resistance, it makes little effort to have decent levels of ductility, impact toughness or machinability (it is *very* low in all three and corrosion resistance as well but that doesn't matter here). Those latter three properties are what is needed for that type of wood working knife, the first property is of no consequence due to the very low rate of wear on knife edges for that class of cutting. So D2 is highest in the property that does not matter and ignores the ones that do and thus it is the worst possible steel to use.
To clarify, it would more correct to say among the worst, M2 would also be of similar stature as would the other steels of such properties. There are also steels which would be even worse such as T15 or the high CPM REX steels, but these are not commonly used for knifemaking. Of course any of the really hard steels would not be a good choice here as well, past 62 HRC and edge brittleness would probably be a factor and the edge would need to have to thicken to reduce damage and then of course you give up cutting ability. A commonly known downside of Japanese chisels, see Lee's book on sharpening for example.
Marbles has had problems with their heat treating reported on the forums in the past, specifically one of their heavier chopping blades completly being destroyed simply chopping through a piece of wood - the edge completely destructed. Of course a flawed piece of steel can perform horribly so yes when buying one get a knife with a decent standard of QC and in any case evaluate it fully before it needs to be depended upon. But yes, if you ground 52100 (L6, 5160 etc.) horribly unsuitable for batoning (thin hollow grind, acute edge) [or any other task] then it would fare badly same as if there were flaws in the steel or heat treatment. This of course doesn't change the fact that its inherent set of properties are ideally suited for the task.
In short, geometry defines cutting ability, heat treatment defines the ability of the steel and the composition [steel type] defines the absolute limits on those abilities. Similar to athletic performance in people, genetics defies your optimal performance (steel composition), training develops it (heat treating), and skill gives birth to function (geometry). A combination of all three is necessary for a superior athlete or knife. Just like coaches will pick athletes for potential which will be developed, you pick steels based on what they are designed to do. Of course you don't blame the steel if you don't take advantage of its abilities.
-Cliff
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- Feb 25, 2001
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All I know is that I've spent a year with my convex ground Dozier, and have done a lot of woodworking with it. Not a hint of a problem has appeared so far. I'm not saying that your facts about various steels are wrong. Its just that my experiences haven't supported your conclusions. I personally dont think that field baton work, when performed by an experienced outdoorsman, is all that hard on a blade. Knots or not.
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Thanks Cliif and Buzz for the exhaustive responses ! I'll be comfortable batoning my Dozier if absolutely necessary, but with a little more emphasis on good technique.
Cliff Stamp
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Buzzbait :
Of course it isn't as an experienced outdoorsman knows how to work with the limits of the tool. As I said with enough experience you can do this with any blade, even the worst choice possible. What you need to realize is that not everyone it at your skill level, some might be lower other higher, and their physical strength may in fact far exceed yours, what you consider very hard batoning they consider very light, what you consider very hard woods they consider very soft.
-Cliff
Of course it isn't as an experienced outdoorsman knows how to work with the limits of the tool. As I said with enough experience you can do this with any blade, even the worst choice possible. What you need to realize is that not everyone it at your skill level, some might be lower other higher, and their physical strength may in fact far exceed yours, what you consider very hard batoning they consider very light, what you consider very hard woods they consider very soft.
-Cliff