Forge Coatings Question

D

Dixieblade57

Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
1,361
OK, I thought I bookmarked this but I can't find it to save my soul. :grumpy: I discussed on a recent thread the various coatings for the forge I was building.
I believe it was Stacey who gave me this recipe, and the proper order to coat the forge in but, like I said now I can't find it!! :jerkit:
I have already put on a coat of Ins-tuff Ceramic-Fiber Rigidizer. I think he then said to lay down a coat of ITC-100, then a coat of Satanite Refractory Mortar, and finally a coat of Bubble Alumina Refractory Coating to protect from flux.
Does this sound like the right order? :confused:
1. Ins-tuff Ceramic-Fiber Rigidizer
2. ITC-100
3. Satanite Refractory Mortar,
4. Bubble Alumina Refractory Coating

Also how long should I allow for drying between products,is 24hrs enough??
Does the forge need to be fired between coats?
 
The order is :
Wool
Rigidizer
Satanite
ITC-100
Bubble Alumina on the floor.

Allow each layer/coat to dry before adding the next.
I allow the rigidizer to dry for a day. The satanite I apply in several thin coats, allowing a day or two between coats. Once the satanite is built up and dry ( may take several days), fire it. The first firing of the burner should be just enough to warm the satanite up to a couple hundred degrees. This will only be a short burn at the lowest flame possible. After the liner has cooled down, fire again at a little higher temp, and cool again, Then fire at a low setting for about two or three minutes. This will cure the satanite. Patch any cracks, let dry, and re-fire if needed. Coat with the ITC-100, let dry for a day or two, and fire it similar to the way you did the satanite.
Add the bubble alumina floor and cure it ,too.
When all is done, fire at a low flame for about five minutes. Raise the flame to a hotter temp, and burn for five more minutes. Increase in steps until the forge is running at full blast. Shut down and let cool.
If you do all this you will have a well cured and robust forge lining.

Stacy
 
I think I just answered my own questions! When all else fails go to the directions. The following are from Ellis Custom Knifeworks site where the afore mentioned were ordered from.

InsTuff questions

Manufacturer's information directly from the bottle:


Handling Instructions
- After air drying, Rigidizer provides a harder and resistant, but less resilient, surface on the material being treated.
- Container should be tightly sealed upon completion of job.
- Avoid freezing, but if it occurs, Rigidizer should be thawed thoroughly and remixed.
- One gallon will cover an area approximately 50 sq. ft. with one brush coat.

Directions for Applying
- Remove dirt, grease, and oil from area to be coated. For best results, surface should be rough or porous.
- Stir Rigidizer thoroughly before use.
- Allow Rigidizer to air dry at room temperature. If desired, drying time for thin application may be shortened by using slightly higher temperatures up to 150 degrees F.
- On some surfaces, two coats may be required to obtain desired hardness. Allow 4 hours between coats unless heat is applied to speed drying.
- Rinse equipment thoroughly in water as soon as possible after application is complete.

Mix the Satanite to a thick paste...just keep adding water slowly until you get a pasty consistency that you can paint on with a paintbrush....roughly the consistency of sour cream. Spray the ceramic fiber insulation down using water with a hand sprayer to wet it lightly. Next, apply the Satanite to the wool using a paintbrush, covering all exposed wool surfaces. To cure it, you want to dry it slowly. First, let the forge sit for a few hours minimum to air dry a little, then fire up the forge just briefly and shut it down. Do this several times, allowing it to cool down in between and increasing the on-time with each subsequent cycle. You'll see water vapor evaporating the first few times you do this. Finally, fire it up and bring it up to full temp to fully cure it. You will probably want to apply at least two coats of Satanite in this manner...it's a little time consuming (do it over a couple of day period) but makes for a more robust coating. a 1/4" layer is a good thickness to shoot for. If you are going to apply ITC-100 over top of the Satanite, be sure to fully cure the Satanite first.So it is:
1. Ins-tuff Ceramic-Fiber Rigidizer
2. Satanite Refractory Mortar,
3. ITC-100
4. Bubble Alumina Refractory Coating
Thought I would post this for anyone else who might be interested!:D
 
I thought i read somewhere that the Rigidizer is onley good up to like 1500 deg or somthing and then it burns off but it is used to harden the wool befor fireing so you can coat it with the other stuff with out damaging the wool. am i corect or did i get off track some where.
 
JT, you are correct.
Using rigidizer alone with the kao-wool will burn off, and allow the wool to collapse, melt/burn , and blow all around the smithy. Covering the stiffened wool with satanite will protect the wool insulation and make the forge more robust. This will give a much longer life, higher temperatures, more even heating, and much less health hazard from airborne fibers. The difference in cost of doing the full process is about $30 for a normal forge. This will make the forge last many times longer and operate much better. It is false economy to be penny wise and pound foolish.

Before anyone hops up and points out that Tai Goo ( and others) uses plain old wool in his DVD, I realize that there are lots of folks doing it lots of ways. The original poster was asking the order I recommended ( and the manufacturers recommended process) which is what I was posting.

That disclaimer made, I would not recommend anyone building a forge without a refractory clay coating ( satanite) and do not recommend the use of loose wool as a door. Fire bricks, insul-board, and cast refractory make far superior and safer doors.

Stacy
 
Amen Stacey! Safety first. I just advised a young fellow recently on another forum who was using a propane forge without a high pressure regulator or shut off valves other than the one on the tank and unsealed inswool how dangerous his forge really was. I think he finally got it because he shut it down and fixed the problems.
For years I did construction work before getting my back screwed up. I don't know how many products over the years I have used, been knee deep in or breathed without a thought of a respirator over the years. Only to find out later that they contained asbestos or other cancer causing agents.
I am nearly deaf, mainly because when I started doing construction their was not the push to protect eyes and hearing that their is now days. Believe me when your health is gone its gone, and your not bullet proof, "just young and stupid"!
JT, thanks for pointing out that by itself rigidizer is not sufficient! Like the young man there is a lot of young folks wanting to get into this knife making business that don't really have the knowledge to understand that some of the things they are doing are dangerous and in some case down right deadly! I really appreciate the fact that for the most part, folks want to share the knowledge they have with others. Only once and it was on another forum did I get the, "newb slide off as dumber than dirt" for asking a question, and at my age I don't have a problem with telling someone like that exactly what I think!!!! That response got me a lot of respect and true answers to the question I was asking. There are a lot of different aspects of this game and no one knew them all when they got started and what may sound like a dumb question to one may be the one question when answered correctly saves someone from getting hurt, or the answer that steers them in the right direction for success ! :)
 
bladsmth said:
JT, you are correct.
Using rigidizer alone with the kao-wool will burn off, and allow the wool to collapse, melt/burn , and blow all around the smithy. Covering the stiffened wool with satanite will protect the wool insulation and make the forge more robust. This will give a much longer life, higher temperatures, more even heating, and much less health hazard from airborne fibers. The difference in cost of doing the full process is about $30 for a normal forge. This will make the forge last many times longer and operate much better. It is false economy to be penny wise and pound foolish.

Before anyone hops up and points out that Tai Goo ( and others) uses plain old wool in his DVD, I realize that there are lots of folks doing it lots of ways. The original poster was asking the order I recommended ( and the manufacturers recommended process) which is what I was posting.

That disclaimer made, I would not recommend anyone building a forge without a refractory clay coating ( satanite) and do not recommend the use of loose wool as a door. Fire bricks, insul-board, and cast refractory make far superior and safer doors.

Stacy
Click to expand...

Stacy,
Just to set the record straight.
I use a clay slurry saturated ceramic wool lining. I say that in my video. The only parts that aren't completely clayed up are the flap doors on the front and back, so they will stay more flexible and adjustable. If the forge ever blows, I'd rather have a little loose wool flying at me than a red hot fire brick. You might want to look at it again, pay better attention and not jump to hasty conclusions.

Another thing to consider with forge safety is that the softer and less solid lighter weight the metal forge shell is as well as the doors, is that it will allow less pressure built up inside the forge chamber in the event of an explosion, and may even help prevent an explosion or a very serious explosion. You may also have noticed that there is a vent on top of the forge in the video, which serves several purposes including less pressure build up inside the forge chamber.
 
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Is there a plce out here in webland to buy just a little bit of this satanite stuff in small amounts? The only stuff I could find locally was in 2 gal bucket for like 50 dollars.
 
bladsmth said:
.............
Before anyone hops up and points out that Tai Goo ( and others) uses plain old wool in his DVD, I realize that there are lots of folks doing it lots of ways. The original poster was asking the order I recommended ( and the manufacturers recommended process) which is what I was posting.

That disclaimer made, I would not recommend anyone building a forge without a refractory clay coating ( satanite) and do not recommend the use of loose wool as a door. Fire bricks, insul-board, and cast refractory make far superior and safer doors.

Stacy
Click to expand...

Tai,
I appreciate your clarification. I didn't mean to imply you don't use refractory. I was merely trying to stop someone from sidetracking this thread with the standard, " XYZ used...in his..." reply post. Your DVD is currently being viewed by a bunch of folks, and the forge shown has loose wool doors. I expected someone to point it out, and was trying to avoid this thread going off topic. I have viewed your DVD several times, and saw that you gave information on how you do your lining
After all the flaps lately, I should have known better than to make that statement. I apologize if you took it as an affront.

The next sentence after referring to your DVD was meant to keep the post directed to the question asked of me, and the information I had given to the poster in a previous conversation.

My final paragraph was my statement on safety in forge building, which is backed by good engineering and safety principles. These recommendations have been the industry standard for nearly 100 years. An experienced smith can do what he wishes in his shop, but when teaching a novice and posting public advise on building a forge, I always use this advise and procedures.

Your forge building technique and reasoning is yours and not subject to my critique, so I don't see any reason to go into comparison or get this thread further off topic with debating pros and cons. I am sure it gets the job done.

There are many makers and many styles of knives and work techniques on this forum. One of the things that makes it a great place is that we don't all have to walk in lock step . There will be differences of opinion, and there will be schools of different styles. That makes us stronger. All that is required is to remain civil, and on occasion agree to disagree.

Sorry if I caused any offense.
Stacy
 
No problem Stacy.

Sorry if I seemed a bit on edge.

You are correct! My personal working style and shop set up are very casual. Neither of my forges conform to any type of conventional “industry standard” that I’ve ever heard of. I have my own set of standards and reasoning, which are strictly my own and not intended to be "proper" for everyone, or anyone but myself.

People need to think for themselves and exercise good safety judgment on their own,…. or even better yet, get personal instruction from an experienced smith before they attempt any bladesmithing! The forums, books and the digital media, DVDs etc,… are no substitute for this and should NOT be taken that way.
 
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