Forge welding laminated billet by hand?

[Pete84]

Being new to forging, I hope you experienced folks will forgive me if this is an ignorant question.

I'm taking courses to learn better forging techniques, forge welding, and general blacksmithing. A course coming up next month covers forge welding... I'm hoping to create a laminated billet during the course using a 1084 core and a mild stainless outer. The shop has a hydraulic press and power hammer. I however, do not.

Is this a process that can be effectively done by hand, by myself? If so, pointers or recommendations? If not, what would be a good budget press to use for this purpose?

Thanks!

 

[DanGraves]

Yes in theory it can be done by hand (very time consuming) but practically speaking no. To choose a press or a power hammer.....I would wait until after the course to choose. Then you will have some experience. No such theing as a budget press. Look to spend 1,600.00 to 4,000.00 for a press and the same for a power hammer.

 

[A C Richards]

Yes it can be done by hand. Keep things much smaller than most of us do. A small billet like a san mai should be able to be done relatively easily by hand. With that, What type of forges does this class use, coal or gas? Welding stainless in a coal forge can be difficult. It can be done but the welds need to be very clean. A dry weld is a great way to help produce clean and complete welds in any forge.

 

[sunshadow]

The stainless is going to be a bit of a nuisance, the problem is going to be protecting the weld surface of the stainless from exposure to oxygen from the time you start to grind the oxide layer off through completion of the weld. Stainless forms a chromium oxide upon exposure to air that will inhibit weld formation, if you can keep oxygen from the surface for the whole time you should be able to weld it by hand

good luck

-Page

 

[Pete84]

With that, What type of forges does this class use, coal or gas?

The instructor prefers coal and uses it almost exclusively in his shop. I, however, am in the final stages of building a propane forge and will likely have this incarnation of it finished well in time for the class, if needed or permitted.

 

[Pete84]

The stainless is going to be a bit of a nuisance

What would you suggest as an alternative? Low carbon steel like 1018, mild steel,... something along those lines? Stainless was just a thought and sounded good in theory, but as you said, it would present a problem in practice.

 

[Pete84]

To choose a press or a power hammer.....I would wait until after the course to choose.

If you were forced to choose between a power hammer and a press, which would be a higher priority? I might be able to purchase one of the two with funds available, but most definitely not both right now.

 

[A C Richards]

If you keep the materials similar it is easier. However the stainless can be done if you have some experience. A 5160 core and 1080 outer would work well. Not as much contrast as ss but would lookout good. If you do a search of set welding it will give you and idea of how I do it.

If you had to choose between a hammer or press I would choose the press. I am just glad I don't have to make that choice. I would be lost if either my hammer or press died.

 

[sunshadow]

What would you suggest as an alternative? Low carbon steel like 1018, mild steel,... something along those lines? Stainless was just a thought and sounded good in theory, but as you said, it would present a problem in practice.

1084 is perfectly compatible with15n20, the 1084 will etch dark with ferric chloride, the 15n20 will stay bright because of its nickel content, it has approximately equivalent hardening characteristics, and similar thermal expansion properties so it will not tear the billet apart from internal stresses

-Page

 

[sunshadow]

Oh and by the way, press vs power hammer, I'm currently building myself a press

-Page

 

[delbert ealy]

I made damascus by hand for 7 years, with billet sizes up to 4 lbs. Getting the weld set does not take a great amount of force. Its the drwaing the steel out that is the work. I would set the weld and draw it a bit with your regular hammer and then work it down to close to thickness with a crosspeen.
Page I am surprised at your response after seeing you go at the steel like a madman.
Del

 

[Mike Davis]

I made damascus by hand for 7 years, with billet sizes up to 4 lbs. Getting the weld set does not take a great amount of force. Its the drwaing the steel out that is the work. I would set the weld and draw it a bit with your regular hammer and then work it down to close to thickness with a crosspeen.
Page I am surprised at your response after seeing you go at the steel like a madman.
Del

True story there! Page is a beast with a hammer! Start small and have fun, don't try to bully the weld, if it is at temp, it will only take easy swings to set the weld...After that is when you put the "hammer down" and draw the stock out. Good luck and show us some pictures when it is done

BTW, Del...good to see you upgrade.

Mike

 

[Pete84]

Start small and have fun, don't try to bully the weld, if it is at temp, it will only take easy swings to set the weld

So, if doing this by hand without press or power hammer, what would be a good stock size for each piece of the billet? I think the thinnest Aldo sells for 1084 is around 1/8"... so, with a three layer San Mai billet, that would make the overall thickness 3/8"? Sounds like I'll be wanting to draw it out with my heavier cross peen. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[cbr900son]

Some good info in here! subscribed!

 

[javand]

Yeah I've had good luck making san mai by hand in a charcoal forge with 1084 and 15n20. You can even work it one side at a time without tacking or wiring the billet together if you're careful.

I'd stay away from the stainless definitely, unless you've got time to give it a few tries before hand.

You'll end up thinner than 3/8" if you use 1/8th 1084, since the 15n20 only comes in 0.072 from Aldo at the thickest, but drawing it out by hand shouldn't be that hard regardless.

 

[A C Richards]

Remember forging, esp at welding temps cause scale. If you begin with .072 15n20 do not forge/draw too much or you might not have any left when finished. Good luck in class and let us know how it goes.

 

[sunshadow]

I made damascus by hand for 7 years, with billet sizes up to 4 lbs. Getting the weld set does not take a great amount of force. Its the drwaing the steel out that is the work. I would set the weld and draw it a bit with your regular hammer and then work it down to close to thickness with a crosspeen.
Page I am surprised at your response after seeing you go at the steel like a madman.
Del

Del is your man when it comes to damascus billet knowledge. As Del said don't slam your first second or third tack on a weld. Welding is a gentle caress with the hammer in the center of your billet. I like to do one gentle hit with my favorite hammer in the center of the billet and put it back in the fire to let the grain structure set across the weld, then one hit on each side of that one, also gentle as can be, reflux, back in the fire, hammer gentle shots in a spiral pattern from center to edge, back in the fire, then once I have covered the entire surface in gentle taps, always straight through the billet perpendicular to the anvil surface (so as not to shear the new structure), then I start to get a little more persuasive. Following that routine, it always sticks, no obvious voids in 4 plus years.

Del, I am a madman, but there is a method to my madness. I made a 160 layer billet before breakfast (literally, I fired up the press at 6 am, breakfast was about 8:30) at the hammer in at Indian George's on his press, and made 4 more billets before I left. If I'm going to get serious I need to build serious equipment.

True story there! Page is a beast with a hammer! Start small and have fun, don't try to bully the weld, if it is at temp, it will only take easy swings to set the weld...After that is when you put the "hammer down" and draw the stock out. Good luck and show us some pictures when it is done

BTW, Del...good to see you upgrade.

Mike

Oh yes, BTW my favorite hammer mentioned above is an antique 4 pound straight pein. That doesn't mean that I hit hard until I am drawing out, on the contrary, until I have tacked the entire billet, I am literally hitting it just hard enough to bring the metal together, that is all it takes, just a love tap. My hammer for one-hand drawing billets over an inch and a half is a 3 kilo Peddinghaus straight pein. Working by hand you don't want to start more than an inch and a half by 4 inches until you have practice. every inch over 4 inches adds about 30 percent to your difficulty until you have a couple billets experience

Good luck, and remember, pictures or it didn't happen (actually pictures help us troubleshoot your process if you hit any snags)

-Page

 

[Kentucky]

I agree with the others, Id try 15n20 and the high carbon...
Ive used a press and a hammer. Personally Ill take a hammer any day over a press. Though if all your doing is knife making then a press will do you fine..

 

[GHEzell]

Getting the weld set does not take a great amount of force. Its the drwaing the steel out that is the work.

Good information there, I'm in 100% agreement... I would suggest skipping the stainless for now, too.

When I'm making damascus by hand, I keep the starting billet size at around 1"x3/4"x6", which should give you enough for 2 hunters maybe... if you want a larger knife, make up 2 smaller billets and weld them together (this is a good time to try composite patterns). as Delbert says, it's not the welding, but the drawing that will have you wishing for a power hammer...

 

[Will52100]

Did damascus by hand on a 20 pound cast iron anvil when I started. To make a larger knife I'd make a couple smaller billets then weld them together and forge to shape.

The press and hammer both have a place and both have areas they work better than the other. I've got both and they really do compliment one another. I use the power hammer more for straight forged steels, and the press more for damascus with a little help from the hammer. If I had to chose one it'd probably be the hammer, I can always build another press, there fairly simple to do.