forge welding

[dms p.a.w.]

A quick question that most likely has a long answer. I saw a tomahawk that was wrapped and forge welded. I tried this and i could not get the weld to take, even when I got the steel to nearly melting. What am I doing wrong? any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Well, with no info on how you were heating it, the type of metals, and the fluxing procedure....it will be pretty hard to answer that question.

 

[dms p.a.w.]

I am a beginer with only the minimum. i made a forge out of 1" plate steel and burn coal. I must profess ingnorance as to the flux. All the info I have on the how-to has come simply watching blacksmith in person and online. I have to admit I am in over my head.

 

[dms p.a.w.]

almost forgot 1045 from the maint shop

 

[Don Hanson III]

Gotta use flux. Plain old Borax work pretty well.

 

[barnett25]

You will need to prepare the joint by making sure the areas that will touch are smooth. Then pre-shape the peice so that all that remains to do is close a small gap between the two ends to be welded. Now heat to orange, wire brush the surfaces to be welded, then sprinkle a spoon full of 20 mule team borax on each of the surfaces.
Now stick it back in the fire and heat to a very hot yellow (just short of throwing sparks, do NOT go too hot or you will burn your steel). Quickly pull the peice out of the fire and over to your anvil. Hit it with solid blows starting in the center of the weld, and quickly working out to the edges.
There is a good chance that the whole weld will not take. You may be able to pry the bad parts open, clean them up, and repeat the process just for those spots.



The main things that can fail are:

1. Not hot enough (you have to be very quick to set the weld).
2. Oxidation in the weld (you prevent this by cleaning it, and using a flux such as borax to prevent oxidation from forming.
3. Setting the weld with too light, or even too strong hammer blows.

Note: I am new to this, so everyone please feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong.

 

[Shoeman22]

No don't take that as blasphemy. Just an old blacksmith saying. You can't weld with green coal, you need to use ''coke'' coal that has been burned before...Scarf joint make sure it's closed up then bring your piece up to temp, then wire brush and flux being sure not to get it flux in the joint, place back into fire, when you see small sparks, remove and strike with a fairly hard blow stepping down to lighter strikes....takes a lot of practice but with patience you'll figure it out. Hope this helps

 

[Dixieblade57]

You will need to prepare the joint by making sure the areas that will touch are smooth. Then pre-shape the peice so that all that remains to do is close a small gap between the two ends to be welded. Now heat to orange, wire brush the surfaces to be welded, then sprinkle a spoon full of 20 mule team borax on each of the surfaces.
Now stick it back in the fire and heat to a very hot yellow (just short of throwing sparks, do NOT go too hot or you will burn your steel). Quickly pull the peice out of the fire and over to your anvil. Hit it with solid blows starting in the center of the weld, and quickly working out to the edges.
There is a good chance that the whole weld will not take. You may be able to pry the bad parts open, clean them up, and repeat the process just for those spots.



The main things that can fail are:

1. Not hot enough (you have to be very quick to set the weld).
2. Oxidation in the weld (you prevent this by cleaning it, and using a flux such as borax to prevent oxidation from forming.
3. Setting the weld with too light, or even too strong hammer blows.

Note: I am new to this, so everyone please feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong.

He pretty much nailed it. Any one of the things he listed can screw up the process! If you are not familiar with 20 mule team borax. It is a laundry soap made up of about 97-98% pure Borax. I forget what the other ingredient is! You can buy it at Wallyworld!

The borax acts as a flux protecting the weld. Much like the flux on a welding rod does. Allowing for the two metals to join when struck with a hammer on an anvil at the right temp and the right amount of pressure of the blow. It is trial and error to begin with, too heavy and won't join too light and it won't join!!!!

 

[dms p.a.w.]

thanks guys. I thought I could heat up some metal and pound it into what I wanted. Guess I will take that blacksmithing course at unc afterall. You guys are great but there are so many things I just don't know. Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Matthew Stagmer]

dms. u can learn alot in one evening on youtube. Go search "how to forge weld" or how to pattern weld on you tube and we will see you when you surface. There is a ton of info on the net these days.

 

[12345678910]

You can find a ton of info here on forging


Specifically the forging books list, and the videos

Especially bruce evans has a hawk video (split eye, not wrapped)

and Coal Creek Forge has some on youtube



http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9172472&postcount=4

 

[deker]

You can also take a look at the site linked in my signature. What I have written there will surely get you welding in no time!

-d

 

[Kentucky]

Well we make a crap load of that style hawk in a coal forge so I'll see if we can help..First the wrap&weld method making hawks and axes is the most traditional way..Historically wrought with a high carbon bit..Anyway if your using 1045 is wont take that much heat..
Lets start with your fire....
*You need either a beehive fire or a large deep fire..At least 4" of coke between the tuyere and the work piece..Then you need a couple of inches of coke above the work piece..
* The steel needs to be cleaned, brush all the forge scale off..
* We use 20 mule team borax for flux.
* The color, hard to explain but a high yellow of what your working with..Look for a glassy wet look to the surface.
*Make sure your whole work piece is brought up to welding temp..Thats where most folks bugger up a wrap&weld hawk..They wont bring the whole head up to heat and the eye wont weld right.
* Light taps, start at the bit and work your way back to the eye..Your not trying to kill a hog, just set the weld..
*Do two or three welding passes before you start to form the eye..Make sure the eye is welded right or it will split open when you use it..
Heres a few pics..Heres a head ready to weld up..

Here it is after the first welding pass..

Here it is after some shaping.Work at a high heat when doing this...A lot of folks will say "you can upset" a welded piece but you can if its welded right..

Heres a big deep fire..Notice a hawk head in there right now..Its already been welded. Its being hsaped at this point..NOTE..When your welding it up your hawk should not be visible like this..

Heres a wrap&weld style head. You can see what it should look like in front of the eye after clean up..

 

[dms p.a.w.]

wow thats a great looking hawk, and thanks for the advice. I'm going to write all of this down and try again, but first i have to re-work my homemade forge. I cant keep the coke over the air,to much air to big of a hole, and I am going to do some simple stuff. I think I am trying to put the cart in front of the horse as the saying goes. Started a skinner out of some chromium-sillicone,5160, small but looks good so far. Have to learn to walk and all that.