Forging advice - trouble handling the hot steel

cmd

cmd

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Feb 7, 2004
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My home-built propane forge is working well and can heat up a 1/2" thick piece of 5160 quickly and reasonably evenly.

The problem is that I have not been able to easily get the pieces back and forth between the forge and anvil. It probably is a result of my poor welding skills but a piece of rebar welded to the steel does not stay attached.

So how do you forge users do it, with no assistance from other people or a power hammer?

I'm thinking of buying a pair of tongs and maybe a flattening hammer off of ebay.

Chris
 
Chris

I use various tongs if the material isn't long enough to use one end for a handle. I forge a lot from round stock that is from 2' to 3' long, so I don't have to use anything to hold the steel for the majority of the forging of the first couple of blades from each piece. I have used a modified pair of vice grips, but they are a PITA sometimes, as they pop open a lot. I'd recommend getting two or three pair of tongs from Kayne and Son's or from Centaur Forge. You could probably find an online tutorial for making tongs on some of the blacksmithing sites.

Todd
 
whatever you do dont grab the red end :eek:

Besides that getting better at welding helps. try ebay for tongs they are way esier to modify than to make from scratch.
 
burke531 said:
learn to weld better. ;)
Click to expand...


Thanks, working on it:p :o The rebar just does not want to stay stuck to the thick chunks of steel long enough.

Good advice from everyone!
 
Make sure that the two surfaces that you are welding are clean. Rusty rebar does not like to weld. Put more weld on than you think you need, it forms scale and falls off just like the steel does.
 
Hi striper28, I did resort to grinding both surfaces before welding and used some flux. My technique (and meager equipment) need a lot of improving. Cutting is easy but making strong welds that can hold up to forging and pounding is not in my bag of tricks - yet.
 
Other than long bars or rods of steel,and a good hot glove on the left hand, you will need tongs.
There is not a real reason to weld a handle on a knife blade blank.(Handles are usually reserved for making damascus)
Get yourself some tongs in several shapes.A good set of starter tongs would be between 16" and 24" long.Suggested jaw patterns to start with might be 3/4" box,3/8" V,wolf jaw,flat nose,and single pick-up.Eventually you will want several size box and V tongs.
Use the V tongs to hold square stock and tangs (will work on round,too).Get V tongs with front and side grip.That way you can hold the blade straight out the tong or sideways to it.
Use the box tongs to hold flat stock and blades from either the tip or the full tang .
Think of the flat jaw and wolf jaw as big pliers. They are handy to have.
The pickup tong is to put the blade in and out of the forge.Get a small one for knife making.
A good starting hammer is a 3# straight pein.Eventually you may have ten or more hammers - and use them all.
Five tongs and a good hammer will run you around $150.
Centaur forge is a good supplier for these items. http://www.centaurforge.com/

Hope this helps - Stacy
 
I use tongs most the time. You might have better luck with your welds if you heat up the rebar and the steel your using before you do the weld.
 
Just to follow up with this thread, I talked with the folks at Centaur Forge and asked for their recomendations, which were three sets of tongs and a hammer.

The tongs are a v-bit, a box jaw, and a flat nosed.

The hammer is a 2# rounding hammer, that is domed on one end and flat on the other.

These tools work very well, and forging is now fun.

Chris
 
All due respect to Bladesmith, but it is a heck of a lot easier to work from parent stock/welded handle than it is from tongs, for most people. Tongs come into play for finish work when the blade must be cut from the stock. But I wouldn't do this any earlier than necessary.

John
 
I've had trouble when working a large stack of damascus with rebar, seems it doesn't like repeated welding heats.:rolleyes:

What are you using to weld with? Torch, stick, ? I find I have good results using 7018 rods to weld rebar to high carbon steels just to hold till I get it beat into a rough knife shape. After that I cut it off and form the tange and finish the blade with tongs. A lot has to do with how you hit the piece and how much you flex the weld back and forth from working it on the anvil. The less you flex the weld the longer it'll hold up. Then again I ran into some rebar that when brought up to forging temp seemed to want to crumble. The weld held but the rest feel off just behind the bead. If while forging the weld looks like it's starting to come loose, don't be afraid to re-weld it.

Good luck
 
John, That is what I said:

"Other than long bars or rods of steel,and a good hot glove on the left hand, you will need tongs."

I agree,if you have long stock it is best to forge until ready to hot cut the blade from the stock.
Chris was asking about tongs,so I advised him on the ones I recommend to new forgers.Interestingly,they were pretty much the same as Centaur recommended.
Stacy
 
Will52100 said:
What are you using to weld with? Torch, stick, ?
Good luck
Click to expand...

Y'all are going to laugh, but I have been using a Bernzomatic oxygen/MAPP kit. I'm not even sure what the rods are, but tried all of the ones that came with it.

It worked fine for cutting up and welding the steel drum for my forge but it is (along with my inexperience) just not up to the task of making welds that last long enough while forging.

No big deal, I will probably get a wire feed MIG setup some day, not enough cash available for one now or even oxy/acetylene.

Stacy gave me the info I was looking for, and even when I start making decent welds the tongs will still be essential forging equipment.

Thanks for the advice on 7018 rods and on technique.

Chris
 
that's what I was afraid of. Gas doesn't get the penitration that electric does. A mig or even a cheap cracker box stick welder will do you better. You could build up more weld with the gas, but it'll take time. I'm using a cheap Lincoln cracker box. It's so cheap that when I was building my press I could only weld a little at a time or I'd start tripping breakers, had to let it cool down, but works fine for light jobs.
 
I agree with John. Stacy, you said, " There is not a real reason to weld a handle on a knife blade blank."

Not having to hang onto tongs is real enough reason for me :p :)

I have plenty of tongs, and I use them a lot, especially some specialized ones... but I always like to weld a handle to my stock if I can. Having that juncture fixed is just one less thing to worry about.

But that's just me (well, apparently John too ;) )
 
OK Nick and John, you got me there. There are times that it is helpful.I can't say that I haven't done it myself.Tongs work for me most of the time,but there are forgings that do require a firm,no twist grip.A welded extension works best in those situations.

Chris, it appears by your note that you are using too small a welding rig.

On a side note, I ran into a guy who brazed on his bolsters before HT and couldn't understand why they fell off in the HT oven!

For those who are always looking for one or two more tongs, The Ozark School of Blacksmithing (Tom Clark - Tom Tongs) is having a buy one get one free sale to clear out some tong surplus. His "U" and "Z" box tongs are great for blade forging.
www.ozarkschool.com .

Once again, I yield this issue to the preference (and welding ability) of the forger.
Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
For those who are always looking for one or two more tongs, The Ozark School of Blacksmithing (Tom Clark - Tom Tongs) is having a buy one get one free sale to clear out some tong surplus. His "U" and "Z" box tongs are great for blade forging.
www.ozarkschool.com .
Click to expand...

Sure...tell me that NOW when I can't really spare the $$...I'm a big fan of Tom Tongs...

I know I'm the odd man out, but I have trouble forging blades off of the end of a bar of stock. I actually cut my stock to the length I figure I'll need for forging out a given blade and work exclusively with tongs. It's just the way my brain works, but I have trouble "seeing what the steel wants to be" when it's attached to all of it's future brethren...

-d
 
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