Forging v grinding.

Ben Dover

Ben Dover

Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,809
I would like to ask a question that I've been wondering about for some time now. There seems to be a lot of heat, but little light in the hunting and outdoor magazines on this subject, so I thought it would be best to seek informarion here, where there's plenty of light, and, fortunately, little heat!:thumbup:

What are the advantages/disadvantages, If any, of forging a blade Versus grinding (stock removal)?????

I know there are folks who have strong opinions on both methods, but I am personally, completely ignorant of why one would have advantages over the other.

Since I plan on adding three or four knives to my collection next year, I thought I would seek some expert advice here BEFORE investing several hundreds of dollars.:jerkit:

Thanks in advance to all wh respond!:)

Ben
 
I would imagine the Makers forum would be the best source of a plausible answer.

I like knives made both ways. it will indeed be a sad day when the art of making a forged knife is dead.
 
Like many things in life, it's just a matter of opinion.

Wayne Goddard and Ed Fowler, among others, have done extensive testing of forged vs. ground blades. Ed says that forged blades are better and , I believe that Wayne didn't find very much difference. I believe that the heat treat and the skill of the maker is probably more important then the method of shaping the blade.

Of course, you have to compare apples to apples and the same steel to the same steel. SRKW seems to get excellent performance from their version of 52100. Busse's knives are ground and perform as good or better then most forged blades.

Personally, I like forged blades, but I use a Busse. :D
 
I'm a rank amateur compared to people here, but I've used both methods for different reasons. I've made two knives this year, the first was ground out of a 1x9 inch planer blade, M2 tool steel I believe. I wasn't going to think about forging that, so what I ended up with was a straight 1x9 inch knife with a hard razor edge. It's a keeper for me.

The other is a skinning blade I'm putting together for a friend who is a trapper. I forged this out of file steel. I do it the old fashioned way with charcoal. It's about the same size as the first knife, but forging let me give the blade an extreme curve for what I believe should be right for a skinning blade. It's an experiment, I'll let him be the judge. If I had an industrial hack saw, I probably could have cut the same shape knife out of a saw blade, but I don't, so I didn't. I think I handled the tempering okay. This knife won't be jammed into a tree to use as a foot step, but it's got a razor edge which was the purpose in the first place.
 
Personally I’m in the Wayne Goddard school of thought, heat treatment and edge geometry are more important than how the blade was made. Forging will allow manipulation that grinding will not, or at least not without starting with much larger stock and grinding most of it away. I mess around with both forge and stock removal, for me forging is more fun and more challenging.

Todd
 
Both ways can be good or bad. All depends on the makers experience. Heat treatment is the heart and soul of any knife. How you get there is a personal choice.
Scott
 
Ben Dover said:
What are the advantages/disadvantages, If any, of forging a blade Versus grinding (stock removal)?
Click to expand...

Forging a blade allows you to work with steels that you could not with stock removal such as ball bearings for example.

-Cliff
 
With forging you need less material to make a blade. In forging you move the steel until it resembles the final shape and then do relatively little grinding. With stock removal you remove material until you have the final shape.

Stainless blades are much more likely to be made by the stock removal method. Stainless steels air harden and tend to be more difficult to forge than most carbon steels. Also, most stainless steels are not moved easily with a hammer.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Stainless steels air harden and tend to be more difficult to forge than most carbon steels. Also, most stainless steels are not moved easily with a hammer.
Click to expand...

One thing which needs to be clearifed is that carbon doesn't mean not stainless. There are many steels like A2, M2, D2, 10V, for example which would not be practical to forge and likely harder to do so than stainless steels. The steels most commonly forged are low alloy carbon steels, though there are guys who have forged all kinds of steels including stainless as well as stellite.

-Cliff
 
If you wish to explore the potential of forging, we just put out a DVD that has all the research, 30 years of experiments and lab work put into 2 hours of information. If you want one contact me.

If you want a knife to work for you, The most important aspect of the maker you chose is not between forged or stock removal, ask how he tests his knives. If his eyes light up and he has what sounds like reliable information, you probably have a good knife in your hands. If he talks of secrets, walk away.

If you seek a usingknife ask about guarantee, if it is for life you may be in good hands. If the maker seeks a deposit before making your knife, be careful.
 
Cliff,

What exactly is Stellite??? I remember that our M60 GPMG barrells were lined with it, but they never told us what it was. :confused: :confused:
 
Ben Dover said:
What exactly is Stellite?
Click to expand...


Cobalt based alloy. Has been used for knives for some time, had a brief fad popularity with Talonite. Very soft and weak and brittle and very coarse carbide structure. High corrosion and wear resistance.

-Cliff
 
Standart production steel usually already kind of forged - pressed by the rolls. So there is no non forged steel around. As well as during forging blade has repetitive heat cicles, which may improve steel same as repeatitive heat treatment without forging - so it is hard to say is it forging really affect steel or heating it during forging.

I think steel structural transformation happen not because of mechanical impact from hammer (until it is bad steel with many impurities inside and air bubles) - just different levelof energy is involved, I guess it will be hard to impact steel by hammer same way as put it in liquid nitrogen. But during forging skilled hammersmith can manipulat with heat treatment and carbon content of different part of the blade with hummer and placing blade in different parts o forge, as well as with different powder...

It is very complicated question and so it has no direct answer. I think it deppends after all on who is making blade - good craftsman will produce good blade one way or another it is just matter of what is more convinient tool for this craftsmen to use forge and hummer or electro owen... IMHO.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. After all performance of the knife is what really important and so this is the best advise!:
Ed Fowler said:
...If you want a knife to work for you, The most important aspect of the maker you chose is not between forged or stock removal, ask how he tests his knives. If his eyes light up and he has what sounds like reliable information, you probably have a good knife in your hands. If he talks of secrets, walk away...
Click to expand...
 
nozh2002 said:
Standart production steel usually already kind of forged - pressed by the rolls. So there is no non forged steel around. As well as during forging blade has repetitive heat cicles, which may improve steel same as repeatitive heat treatment without forging - so it is hard to say is it forging really affect steel or heating it during forging.
QUOTE]


Around 1972 or '73 I ordered a knife from Corbet Sigman. At that time his favorite steel was W2. He forged the tip of the blade. When I asked him why, he replied that the steel was already forged when it was rolled, but the grain was along the length of the bar stock. By forging the tip where it curves to the point he could change the direction of the grain to make the tip stronger. He also said that in reality it would make very little difference, but he felt good about the results.

Dang! I wish I still had that knife.:(
Click to expand...
 
nozh2002 said:
It is very complicated question and so it has no direct answer.
Click to expand...

It isn't a complicated question and it has been answered directly, Kevin Cashen has done this in detail and none of the people who advocate forging as improving steel have offered any contention to what Cashen has written.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It isn't a complicated question and it has been answered directly, Kevin Cashen has done this in detail and none of the people who advocate forging as improving steel have offered any contention to what Cashen has written.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

Can you give a link to his writing?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Blade Magazine has in its last 2 issues covered this in depth as well if you have acess. Forging does improve how suited metal is for certain jobs, but with a knife it creates very little difference in the finished product. Proper heat treating is a much bigger factor that forge/stock removal will ever be. When working with junk steel like many ancient smiths did, forging made the metal usable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top