Forgive Me For Asking

UW Mitch · Nov 8, 1999

I've read so many posts about the Chris Reeves Sebenza. I don't mean this in a negative way or anything, but what makes the Sebenza such a special knife? I saw one at the CMWE in Bellevue, WA this weekend, and at first I thought it was a Benchmade Pinacle. I'm sure there's a long list of reasons that justify it's price (reasons why so many forumites carry them)
Please enlighten me.

Thanks,
Mitch

the4th · Nov 8, 1999

If I hadn't gotten into mine so cheaply, I couldn't find the justification. It is a wonderful knife, just not $200.00 more wonderful than the BM Pinnacle (in my opinion). Others will argue this point.

Jim March · Nov 8, 1999

It's the quality, the warrantee, the smoothness, the steel.

The smoothness has now been duplicated by others. Reeve's heat-treat on the high-end BG42 is excellent, so you'll have edgeholding a good step up from a Benchmade in ATS34 and at *least* a small step up in toughness.

The Sebenza lock is a good development of the linerlock; your human grip strength reinforces the lock and prevents accidental unlock where your fingerflesh accidently trips an unlock lever.

The Pinnacle lockwork is considered by many of us a "direct ripoff of the Sebenza". Including me. As a basic principle, I wouldn't buy a Pinnacle and I think less of Benchmade for having made it. Buying from an honest maker matters to me. The Axis lock they purchased fair and square from William Henry I think they're called...anyways, a small high-end maker came up with it.

All that said, I don't buy fight-capable folders with just one blade in the 4" or less range. I'd buy a 5"+ Sebenza in a hearbeat.

Jim

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 8, 1999

Mitch did you handle the knife?

It is hard to describe why it is so great unless you hold it, handle it, use it. Simply telling you, it has better steel, better workmanship...well you know that already.

It may also turn out to be not much better than the Pinnacle for you.

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Johnny
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JoHnYKwSt · Nov 8, 1999

Jim,

Reeve's heat-treat on the high-end BG42 is excellent, so you'll have edgeholding a good step up from a Benchmade in ATS34 and at *least* a small step up in toughness.

It should be more than a small step up in toughness Jim. BG-42 at 61Rc is as tough as ATS-34 at 59Rc. Combine that with Chris' excellent heat treat, the lowering of BG-42 to 59-60, a super thin edge, and you have an excellent cutter that isn't more brittle than ATS-34 with a thick less effective cutting edge.

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Johnny
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UW Mitch · Nov 8, 1999

I noticed the striking similarity between the Pinnacle and the Sebenza, but I didn't realize that Benchmade created the Pinnacle without giving any credit Reeves. Shame on Benchmade. I will definitely NOT be buying a Pinnacle. Why do you think such a reputable company such as Benchmade "ripped off" Reeves design? Benchmade advertises the Pinnacle with a trade-marked "Mono-lock." Did they get the rights to it first?

~Mitch

Hoss · Nov 8, 1999

Its really hard to explain the love you can/do/will have towards a Sebenza. I have many knives but none have the same "hold" over me as the Sebenza. Maybe its because its the only "expensive" knife that I'm not afraid to use. Its classy, understated and definitely worth every penny.

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 8, 1999

Mitch,

Chris Copyrighted the name, "Integral Lock" but they never patented the lock itself. Benchmade did not do anything illegal here. It is not nice to copy other people's designs without giving them credit, but it is done all the time. Michael Walker invented the Liner Lock, how often does he get credit?

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Johnny
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Jim March · Nov 8, 1999

Johnny, I knew there was a major edgeholding difference but wasn't sure about how much more toughness was present. Which is why I used the phrase "at least a bit more...".

Reeves used to do ATS34, and didn't upgrade without sound reason for doing so.

As to Benchmade, I never said that they broke the letter of the law...by all accounts they didn't.

That doesn't make it *right*.

Jim

leroys_45 · Nov 8, 1999

i'm going to catch hell for this, but i'm glad benchmade came out with a frame lock. by the way, why aren't you guys ripping on CRKT? they have the S-2. anyway, BM made it affordable to get a framelock. i like the design, but i don't ever see myself having a sebenza. they just didn't feel right and even if it did, i would have a really tough time paying that much for a folder. BM pinnacle gets close enough in smoothness, edge holding, etc. for me. i don't think they will ever really cut into sebenza territory, as many out there will buy a sebenza and nothing else. the pinnacle gives us other people a cheaper alternative that feels better in the hand.

wkrafft · Nov 9, 1999

One other thing to consider is that BM doesn't make a left-handed Pinnacle. I've owned a Pinnacle but sold it because I found that white-knuckling the knife in my left hand released the lock.
Whereas a Sebenza can be ordered from CR left-handed.
Walter

stjames · Nov 8, 1999

Benchmade is an American company. As long as they can stamp Made in USA on their products they should be held to the spirit as well as the letter of the law.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA

Marion David Poff · Nov 8, 1999

I would reccomend using the search feature to search for references to this knife, this question has come up numerous times.

I have some stuff on my site about the Sebenza, and links to a couple of threads.

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Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

My site is at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770 Including my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper.

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.

Scarman · Nov 8, 1999

You know for the longest time I wanted one of these, even before Chris changed over to the BG-42, I still have the old catalog that they sent me.
When I finally got the chance to get one I was not the least bit concerned with whether it was worth it or not(my wife on the other hand.....).
I have had mine for only a short while but I must say it is worth the money. Not only is this by far the best folder I have ever owned or handled but it is backed but what I consider the best warranty and company in the market.
I also like that they encourage you to maintain your own knife, i.e. sharpening, cleaning, disassembling and the like but will still provide warranted service.
IMHO, it is money well spent and I WILL be buying another CR knife(just don't know which one yet

)
One last thing. I have handled the Benchmade knock-off and while it is not a bad knife by any means, it is nowhere near a Sebenza.
(Rant mode off)

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It is no sin to doubt some things but it may be fatal to believe everything.
*A.W. Tozer

2 Tim 4:3-4

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 8, 1999

A correction towards one of my posts above. The liner lock was not invented by Michael Walker. I was not sure if he invented when I initially posted, but I do believe he popularized it. Thanks to Dennis for clearing that with me.

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Johnny
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Frantium · Nov 9, 1999

Jim,

The Axis lock they purchased fair and square from William Henry I think they're called...anyways, a small high-end maker came up with it.

I think the designers of BM Mono-Lock are Bill McHenry and Jason Williams, and not to be confused with William Henry the company.

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Reynaert
Fayetteville, AR

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 9, 1999

Frantium,

I think you meant Bill McHenry and Jason Williams are the designers of the Axis lock, not Mono lock.

As for the designer of the mono lock, frame lock, or integral lock itself...well we all know that is Chris Reeve.

Mission, Darrel Ralph, Tom Mayo, at least indirectly, call their locks Integral locks. Have these people given Chris credit? I'm not sure. Is what these people are doing illegal? I'm not sure. I do know "Integral lock" is copyrighted by Chris Reeve and he can take legal action if he wanted to. But then again "Liner Lock" is copyrighted by Michael Walker (hope I don't get another email telling me this is wrong

) and people use that term freely.

If Chris did patent the lock itself, and we have makers like Allen Eliswitz/Pat Crawford coming out with similar locks, "Bolster Lock", it would be very difficult and costly to take legal action. This could be one of the reasons Bill McHenry and Jason WIlliams sold the rights to the axis lock to Benchmade. Big companies like Benchmade can take legal action. It is much harder for small time makers to do this. And if they do it usually isn't worth the effort.

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Johnny
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shivey · Nov 9, 1999

I'm outdoors, frequently "using" my knives,
about 90% of my day. The legalities aside,
I'm glad I can own a quality frame-lock
for a $100: thanks BM! If I lost a $400
Sebenza in 6" of snow I'd kill myself!
It's just too bad BM can't do some pirating
over at REKAT.....I'd love to own a "quality"
rolling lock.

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Tom Pilotti

Frantium · Nov 10, 1999

JoHnYKwSt,

Yes!! I stand corrected, that's what I meant. I was referring to the Axis/Vortex lock. See what a tired mind could do to you?

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Reynaert
Fayetteville, AR

Freemon · Nov 10, 1999

As a Pinnacle user and a Sebenza looker I've enjoyed this thread...many diverse opinions. Though I've got a couple customs, guess what they 'sit'. Never felt right using them. Till I felt the sbenz I thought the same, another $3/4oo folder that wasn't for me. With a drawer full of used good quality production folders I found the bm750 just the ticket for me. Now that I've got a cpl 750's guess what, sbenza is next...and not as a showpiece. Don't think I'd have bought the sbenza a year ago. I thank bm for using a good design,and doing 'their' best with it. If it wasn't a copyright/patent violation somebody would be doing it. Personally I think they will BOTH profit from it....bm's is quality at $100 value, cr's is quality at $3/400value , with each we get what we pay for....what's the problem.

time for lunch...I'll take 2 sabenza'a...hold the mayo, ambi studs 'n razor sharp.

Larry Van Fossen
Brooksville, Fl

Forgive Me For Asking

Sebenzanista